Posted: Wed 09 Mar 2005 17:19 Post subject: Black Men who Hate Black Women
I am told a thread on the Women's Issues forum examines "black" men and others dating out of their "race." I think parts of this question are appropriate for us all to think about.
I use to correspond with a discussion group named "Asiaphile Forum." I don't think it exists anymore in quite the same form. But its remnant still exists on the Net, labeled
AsianWhite.org http://www.asianwhite.org/
The original Asiaphile concentrated on the phenomenal chemistry happening between East Asian women and "white" men. (Focus being on East Asians.) Asian-American women are exogamous (mostly to "white" men) approaching 40%. Some of this pairing-up is going on overseas in Asian countries, too. In contrast, Asian men marry out at less than half the rate of Asian women. (Note, this is still double exogamy of "black" men, & maybe 3 or 4 times that of "black" women.) Not surprisingly, angry Asian men posted volumes of hate on Asiaphile expressing their objections. Their tirades were disputed by numerous Asian women posters. A few "white" women participated. About half had negative comments, the rest announcing they were dating an Asian man. Surprisingly (to me), objecting "black" women well outnumbered objecting "white" women. (Asian M/"black" F couples are rarest of all.)
The forum's name -- Asiaphile -- played on disparaging remarks about men as a class who feel attracted to Asian women (non-Asian men, that is). In fact the disparaging term "asiaphile" denigrates the Asian women, too. It invokes the psychiatric pedophile label for a sexual fetish, adapting it to the "white"/Asian parings implying a sexual aberration. Perhaps this epithet floats in our Western culture, but I never heard anyone say it about my child-size wife or me. (~;)
Pertinent here, the Asiaphile forum struggled with questions of what is right or "normal"? The host/moderator was, himself a likely suspect. He was a single "white" man who liked to date Asian women, he said. It turned out he did not have a particular Asian sweetheart -- he only desired to meet an Asian woman for dating and a relationship. In other words, instead opening himself to the possibility of an Asian lover, he hoped to have one -- in the abstract (i.e., like a fetish).
It seemed to be plain that the Asiaphile host/moderator was himself an "asiaphile" in the term's slimiest connotation. What else is to be said of a man who sets his sights on a female racial "phenotype," a woman-template composed all of racial stereotypes -- necessarily -- since he has not met a particular woman yet!?
But on further reflection it seems a deeper question than simply blowing off folks predisposed to exogamy as exhibiting an aberrant sexual fetish. Firstly, there exists a class of men who are "asiaphile" with everyone's blessings. These are Asian men. Why should Asian men have more claim on Asian women in the abstract (a la fetish) than non-Asian men do? And for that matter (secondly) do "white" gentlemen preferring blondes not exhibit a sick fetish too? Basically, is anyone entitled to any preference? If egalitarianism forbids anyone a dating preference (that might be called a fetish) then what justification remains for turning down any date, however horrible? I think at the end of the day we need to accept individual preference discretion -- even fetishistic Mr. Asiaphile trespassing outside his own "race" -- because denying preference discretion undermines the keystone of our evolution by sexual selection. I would argue that the importance of our individual discretionary freedom to selectively choose our mate is near impossible to overstate.
On Asiaphile Forum a robust, liberal multicultural college student faction harped endlessly on the imperative of preserving Asian-American "culture." But this was a non-issue in my opinion. Asian-America is assimilating. After all, isn't that what they're over here for? The world's Asian side is certainly not threatened with absorption. Some of us speculated that cultural selection (survival of "good" culture) might have its own evolution?
But clearly, Asian men and women evolved together for each other over millennia. They plainly are the male and female versions of each other, forming together a visual "race" (an easily recognizable racial group). Asiaphile Forum asked whether or not this racial-biological evolving together (doubtless ancient & refined) gave Asian men a superior claim? That is (since we had no wish to break up any existing M/F relationship), do Asian men have any more right to a fetish-stereotype of abstract Asian womanhood, a mere template-someone who they haven't met yet, than our slimy "white" Mr. Asiaphile has? (It is hard to punch someone out over the Internet. But I saw it almost done.)
To me, Asian men's claim on the class of Asian women is no more than equal, regardless of their evolved racial matching, because giving Asian men any preference however small draws an immutable "race-line" with the essence of impermeablility -- it cannot rightly be crossed. Instead, whole-human racial biology still prevails, I argue. That is, the crossings of Asians with "whites" and the rest of the human race produce fit, fertile offspring. Finis. The Jeffersonian doctrine of creation equal settles here in the special commonality of our universal human breeding isolate. The burden is on those who would outlaw "miscegenation." Their arguments all failed. History has left them in the dust. The hot tempered Asian men on Asiaphile Forum did not even post "anti-miscegenation" objections couched in that eugenic pseudo-science of skin-hue racial arrogance. (The men mainly flamed Asian women to cinders for faithlessness.)
Should the United States follow Mexico, Brazil, the general Latin American model of unrestrained racial amalgamation? Suppose the whole world went exogamy-wild? Such nervous apprehensions seem to be at the intellectual heart of U.S. white racism (that lingers). I think anyone taking a position tolerating people's unfettered interracial access, mating, needs to accept that an Hispanic "can be of any race" style of complexion hodge-podge likely will engulf North America. And eventually the whole world might lose its recognizable geographical human racial distinctions? I am open to your thoughts on this.
George
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 168 } Location: Mid-Atlantic States; USA
Posted: Sun 12 Nov 2006 18:14 Post subject: Re: Black Men who Hate Black Women
Personally, I cherish our Multiracial womenfolk, of all mixtures; from
those almost black as India Ink to those almost white as Scandinavian
Snow. Yet, none of them are my property, nor are they the property
of any human, Multiracial or not. In my humble opinion, our womenfolk
are free human beings, and the earth is spacious. Love is theirs to find
wherever and with whomever they can find it. Just because I see them as
my sisters and cousins, and now usually as my nieces; doesn't give me
any say over their love lives or over any other of their personal choices.
My job is merely to encourage them and support them as they move
forward, blessing the world as they see fit, with their mixed beauty.
As far as Black women are concerned, I don't know who hates them,
but I certainly know who loves them. They are loved all over the world.
Many men are just afraid of them I think. I think that's a lot of it. Men like
to feel important. And the stereotype of the African male is just too much
for many of us men to ever seriously think of competing with. So many
men, I think, just move on to the next lady. Why have your feelings hurt?
And some men, to appear macho, make insults. Sometimes folks insult
those they think won't like them. It's just sour grapes. But secretly, ah
yes, what a lady. I could be wrong, but that's what I think much of it is.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Sun 12 Nov 2006 22:50 Post subject:
Just curious what the OP has to do w/ black men hating black women? It seems to be about the rightness or wrongness of dating across (arbitrary) ethnic lines.
One of the interesting aspects of the South was politicians who condemned "race mixing" by day, and practiced it by night. Even when the taboos and legal penalties were severe, people crossed the line when they could get away with it, and lied about it if they needed to.
For the record, I'm opposed to any sort of ban or interference in multi ethnic dating. It's strictly up to the individuals involved. Practically speaking, no ban, no law, could ever prevent human beings from doing what comes naturally. Should or shouldn't doesn't really come into play, because people have proven conclusively over the generations that they always will.
Both Julius Erving (Dr J) and Michael Jordan married black identified women who are probably of mostly European ancestry. This was okay w/ both the black American and white American communities - there was no condemation by either side towards either man for "marrying outside his race". Other famous athletes who married white identified women, like David Thompson, were critized by some whites and some blacks. Apparently, a small amount of African ancestry made all the difference.
An acquaintance told me about a situation at his sister's university. An African student there was having a hard time getting dates, because the black women on campus, including the sister, thought he was too dark skinned to be presentable. So they froze him out. The African student did what anyone would do: He went elsewhere, and started dating white women. Now the black women, including the sister, were furious. How dare he!
What it comes down to is a culture clash. The cultural values of one community conflict with those of another community when it comes to the deadly serious business of human pairing and mating.
If people really serious about ethnically exclusive dating, they should live in mono ethnic state where ethnic exclusivity is the only real option. Migrating to a multiethnic society and insisting on exclusivity once you get there is pointless.
so what did the sister want him to do? wait for them? i just can't believe she admitted that they did not find him attractive, but later became upset that he dated outside his "Race"...
If he was African, he has completely different cultural values anyways
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 18:58 Post subject: Is abstract interracial phenotype prefrence good?
At top of this thread, back on 09 Mar 2005, I discussed my observations on an Asiaphile Forum web site. I tried to bring out several questions I thought were worth musing over. Let me here re-post some in a digested form.
1) Do Asian men and women in America (or any other self-recognizing racial/ethnic community) have any more right of access to one another as dates or marital partners than someone who is an "outsider"?
2) Is anything "wrong" with a person (particularly a man) actively trolling for dates among women of a "different race"? And for this question let's assume the man knows no particular woman; he merely claims he "prefers" a stereotype or a phenotype that fits women of a "race" not his own. There was a Mr. Asiaphile who pushed this "fetish?" envelope. (Described himself as a 30-ish "white" guy in Dallas, Tx.) We found him out to be a cad, a real lounge lizard. He had no honorable intentions at all. Does this make any difference? Is it right or proper for Asian lounge-lizards (preying on Asian beauties) to chase away the "white" and "black" lounge lizards?
3) The exogamy imbalance puts Asian men at a disadvantage in America. Some cry that the 40% outmarriage rate of Asian women leaves Asian men bachelors. "Black" women have been heard crying the protest too, at "black" mens' exogamy to "white" women. (Asian men and "black" women ought to find each other. But they don't.) Does exogamy imbalance add anything to the thinking, whether anyone deserves preferential access to partners of their own racial complexion?
4) After the U.S. Civil War, Democrat and Republican congressmen furiously debated the proposed Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. "Miscegenation" worries dominated their debates. Latin America was the opposing Democrats' Exhibit "A," demonstrating, they said, the consequences of "amalgamation." Alfred Avins, "Anti-Miscegenation Laws and the Fourteenth Amendment: The Original Intent," 52 Virginia Law Review 1224 (1966). (Amazingly, the 14th Amend. was adopted in 1868 anyway.) With this in mind, what are the best arguments possible for leaving any racial population "unmixed"? What is the best argument for ruthlessly "amalgamating" all the world? Might there be a unifying viewpoint which ought to persuade everyone to mind their own business, hands-off other peoples' marriages; and to leave managing "races" to the natural laws (or "Creator") which evolved them in the first place?
George
Posted: Sun 19 Nov 2006 21:29 Post subject: Re: Black Men who Hate Black Women
leosprycat wrote:
Personally, I cherish our Multiracial womenfolk, of all mixtures; from
those almost black as India Ink to those almost white as Scandinavian
Snow. Yet, none of them are my property, nor are they the property
of any human, Multiracial or not. In my humble opinion, our womenfolk
are free human beings, and the earth is spacious. Love is theirs to find
wherever and with whomever they can find it. Just because I see them as
my sisters and cousins, and now usually as my nieces; doesn't give me
any say over their love lives or over any other of their personal choices.
My job is merely to encourage them and support them as they move
forward, blessing the world as they see fit, with their mixed beauty.
As far as Black women are concerned, I don't know who hates them,
but I certainly know who loves them. They are loved all over the world.
Many men are just afraid of them I think. I think that's a lot of it. Men like
to feel important. And the stereotype of the African male is just too much
for many of us men to ever seriously think of competing with. So many
men, I think, just move on to the next lady. Why have your feelings hurt?
And some men, to appear macho, make insults. Sometimes folks insult
those they think won't like them. It's just sour grapes. But secretly, ah
yes, what a lady. I could be wrong, but that's what I think much of it is.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 168 } Location: Mid-Atlantic States; USA
Posted: Mon 20 Nov 2006 04:23 Post subject: Re: Black Men who Hate Black Women
kim2007 wrote:
leosprycat wrote:
Personally, I cherish our Multiracial womenfolk, of all mixtures; from
those almost black as India Ink to those almost white as Scandinavian
Snow. Yet, none of them are my property, nor are they the property
of any human, Multiracial or not. In my humble opinion, our womenfolk
are free human beings, and the earth is spacious. Love is theirs to find
wherever and with whomever they can find it. Just because I see them as
my sisters and cousins, and now usually as my nieces; doesn't give me
any say over their love lives or over any other of their personal choices.
My job is merely to encourage them and support them as they move
forward, blessing the world as they see fit, with their mixed beauty.
As far as Black women are concerned, I don't know who hates them,
but I certainly know who loves them. They are loved all over the world.
Many men are just afraid of them I think. I think that's a lot of it. Men like
to feel important. And the stereotype of the African male is just too much
for many of us men to ever seriously think of competing with. So many
men, I think, just move on to the next lady. Why have your feelings hurt?
And some men, to appear macho, make insults. Sometimes folks insult
those they think won't like them. It's just sour grapes. But secretly, ah
yes, what a lady. I could be wrong, but that's what I think much of it is.
Leo Y. "Ireland" Abdulmalik
Ms. Kim (smile); Ma'am, my
respect and good wishes for
you and your loved ones.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Tue 21 Nov 2006 03:36 Post subject:
Quote:
Might there be a unifying viewpoint which ought to persuade everyone to mind their own business, hands-off other peoples' marriages; and to leave managing "races" to the natural laws (or "Creator") which evolved them in the first place?
George
As far is the law is concerned, it is MYOB.
Socially of course, marriage will never be strictly the concern of the two individuals, because marriage also involves the merger of two families, their collective resources and human capital. It's one case where the personal truly is the political.
There is no fine bright line between personal taste and fetish. Is a woman's attraction to tall, good looking men with money a fetish, a natural phenomenon, an evolutionary adaptation?
As long as the people involved know what they're getting into, the motives which brought them together are their concern and theirs alone.
As leo said, nobody owns anybody else. Black identified men are not owned by black identified women, and multiracial identified women are not owned by black men, and Asian American women are not owned by Asian American men. Nobody is a "sell out", because everyone owns him or herself. Nobody is community property.
'
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