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G-Man
Moderator
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }
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 Posted: Fri 22 Sep 2006 13:59 Post subject: |
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But Taylor's freedom of speech is constitutionally protected by virtue of his U.S. citizenship not his race. The same freedom extends to the Nation of Islam to publish "The Final Call". |
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fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5380 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Fri 22 Sep 2006 14:11 Post subject: |
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| G-Man wrote: | | But Taylor's freedom of speech is constitutionally protected by virtue of his U.S. citizenship not his race. |
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if non-citizens within the U.S. (resident aliens, vistors) also enjoy the same Bill of Rights protections as citizens? |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Fri 22 Sep 2006 18:02 Post subject: |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | G-Man wrote: | | But Taylor's freedom of speech is constitutionally protected by virtue of his U.S. citizenship not his race. |
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if non-citizens within the U.S. (resident aliens, vistors) also enjoy the same Bill of Rights protections as citizens? |
The Bill of Rights does not make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. The Fourth Amendment also offers freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. The Bill of Rights may not grant foreigners the right to enter the United States whenever they want, but once here, immigrants are entitled to certain broad constitutional protections. Due Process, whether in a deportation hearing or a criminal court proceeding-applies (or supposed to apply) to everyone within U.S. borders. And Equal Protection prohibits discrimination based on race or national origin. An alien's rights to free speech and religious freedom are also protected under the First Amendment. |
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LMartin
Regular User
Joined: 11 May 2005
{Posts: 84 }
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri 22 Sep 2006 21:14 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | fwsweet wrote: | | G-Man wrote: | | But Taylor's freedom of speech is constitutionally protected by virtue of his U.S. citizenship not his race. |
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if non-citizens within the U.S. (resident aliens, vistors) also enjoy the same Bill of Rights protections as citizens? |
The Bill of Rights does not make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. The Fourth Amendment also offers freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. The Bill of Rights may not grant foreigners the right to enter the United States whenever they want, but once here, immigrants are entitled to certain broad constitutional protections. Due Process, whether in a deportation hearing or a criminal court proceeding-applies (or supposed to apply) to everyone within U.S. borders. And Equal Protection prohibits discrimination based on race or national origin. An alien's rights to free speech and religious freedom are also protected under the First Amendment. |
The Fourteenth Amendment gives access to the Bill of Rights.
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The last phrase would seem to include everyone. Do the states have "jurisdiction" over the aliens within its borders?
LMartin |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Fri 22 Sep 2006 22:12 Post subject: |
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| Yes they do. If not they wouldn't be able to try them in a court of law. They avail themselves of that states'jurisdiction by living there. |
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LMartin
Regular User
Joined: 11 May 2005
{Posts: 84 }
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat 23 Sep 2006 00:50 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | Yes they do. If not they wouldn't be able to try them in a court of law. They avail themselves of that states'jurisdiction by living there. |
I quess that last part of the Fourteenth Amendment would be the reason the 911 suspects are held in Guantanamo Bay. If they were held in the United States they would have "equal protection of the law."
| Quote: | | nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. |
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zsana
Moderator
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }
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| Posted: Sun 08 Oct 2006 14:11 Post subject: |
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Book TV Programs
A Weekly Look at Selected Book TV Programs
On Saturday, October 7 at 9:00 pm and Sunday, October 8 at 6:00 pm and at 9:00 pm
After Words: Lawrence Otis Graham, author of "The Senator and the Socialite: The True Story of America’s First Black Dynasty" http://www.lawrenceotisgraham.com/content/index.asp interviewed by Adam Clayton Powell III, director of the Integrated Media Systems Center at the University of Southern California
Watch interview at below link...
http://www.booktv.org/feature/index.asp?segID=7512&schedID=453 |
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Phil345
Wizard
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
{Posts: 524 }
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006 05:01 Post subject: |
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| zsana wrote: |
The statements "passing for white" and "most descendants of Sen. Bruce live as white persons" trouble/confuse me.
Now the Washington Post is known for articles dealing with the issue of "passing as white" and supporting the notion of the ODR, so there is no real surprise there. Black and white writers there preach the party line in that regard.
BUT, claiming that most descendants of Sen. Bruce are merely "living as white persons" is what I don't get. It insinuates a deception is still taking place all these years later does it not?
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I just finished watching the book tv video of Graham discusing this. Towards the end he talks about the living descendents of Bruce contacting him to discuss the family, but not wanting to be "revealed", and wishing to remain anonnymous. Some of them even attempt to arrange secret meetings at obscure locations late at night where nobody would recognize them -- strait out of 007 or something.
It is this behavior that "troubles and confuses" me. It is really that serious?? What could they possibly be afraid of in 2000?? Is not as if its 1930, and they would be fired from their job or something for being "revealed" to have a black ancestor. Who would even care?? Most people would probably just find it fascinating.
It would be different if those persons identified as white, but were still open and honest about having some black ancestors.
| Quote: | It insinuates a deception is still taking place all these years later does it not?
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From grahams description of his experience with the relatives that were "in the closet", it is apparent that deception is genuinely taking place. The relatives were ashamed for people to know that they were the descendent of a U.S Senator, and didnt want to be identified, stating that they had kept it a secret and didnt want their family to know.
This kind of behavior promotes the ODR. Theres no reason to keep anything a secret anymore; they should just be honest about that part of their family history and still identify as white. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006 14:23 Post subject: |
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Correct
| LMartin wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | Yes they do. If not they wouldn't be able to try them in a court of law. They avail themselves of that states'jurisdiction by living there. |
I quess that last part of the Fourteenth Amendment would be the reason the 911 suspects are held in Guantanamo Bay. If they were held in the United States they would have "equal protection of the law."
| Quote: | | nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. |
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fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5380 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006 16:16 Post subject: |
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| Phil345 wrote: | | What could they possibly be afraid of in 2000?? Is not as if its 1930, and they would be fired from their job or something for being "revealed" to have a black ancestor. Who would even care?? Most people would probably just find it fascinating. |
I agree completely. The claim is mystifying. Especially since our personal experiences contradict this. After our shows, (White) people have come up to Mary Lee and me in order to share the fact that they have a Black grandparent. Far from being secretive, they seem quite proud of the fact, and (as Phil345 suggested) other bystanders seem to find it fascinating as well.
Last edited by fwsweet on Thu 04 Jan 2007 04:32; edited 1 time in total |
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odocoileus
Mentor
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
{Posts: 300 }
Location: Chatsworth, CA
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006 16:30 Post subject: |
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If you have family members or close friends who despise black Americans, you're probably not going to identify yourself as having African ancestry.
The division between public and private discourse should be kept in mind. These days, only madmen and fools publicly admit to hating blacks. Privately, many people still "wouldn't want their child to marry one".
It's easy enough to say that having black ancestry doesn't make you "black". If beliefs about black Americans were rational, that would be enough. But we're talking about irrational fear and hostility here. It doesn't necessarily yield to reason. |
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zsana
Moderator
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006 18:38 Post subject: |
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Phil345 wrote:
| Quote: | From grahams description of his experience with the relatives that were "in the closet", it is apparent that deception is genuinely taking place. The relatives were ashamed for people to know that they were the descendent of a U.S Senator, and didnt want to be identified, stating that they had kept it a secret and didnt want their family to know.
This kind of behavior promotes the ODR. Theres no reason to keep anything a secret anymore; they should just be honest about that part of their family history and still identify as white. |
I agree with you 100% The descendants have a fascinating history full of colorful personalities. They should be proud and not "in the closet". Perhaps some of them have married into racist families that can't handle (or would react violently to) the truth. If so what a pity and a shame.
odocoileus wrote:
| Quote: | | It's easy enough to say that having black ancestry doesn't make you "black". If beliefs about black Americans were rational, that would be enough. But we're talking about irrational fear and hostility here. It doesn't necessarily yield to reason. |
Ain't that the sad and sick truth. |
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Powell
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2462 }
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| Posted: Tue 02 Jan 2007 14:14 Post subject: The white Bruce Descendants |
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| I would not condemn the white Bruce descendants based on the word of Graham alone. In his book on the so-called "black" (actually mulatto and mixed white) elite, he shows himself to be a supporter of forced hypodescent and claims that anyone he considers "black" who rejects that identity as false is just trying to have a romantic relationship with a "pure" white who is too racist to accept them otherwise. Their real crime seems to be that they are not marrying blacks like Graham and "improving the race" with off-the-record miscegenation (like Graham's wife). |
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zsana
Moderator
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }
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odocoileus
Mentor
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
{Posts: 300 }
Location: Chatsworth, CA
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan 2007 01:05 Post subject: |
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L.O. Graham is from the same wealthy multiracial class as his wife. As we've established repeatedly on this board, phenotype doesn't correspond absolutely to genotype, and there is substantial phenotypic variation within families.
Both Graham and his wife identify as black Americans. Both Graham and his wife are of mixed European and African ancestry. These are the facts of the matter. Insisting that Graham is racially "black" while his wife is racially "white" is both factually wrong, and morally wrong because it denies them their chosen identity. Imposing a cultural identity by eyeballing some photos is precisely what we should avoid. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan 2007 04:26 Post subject: |
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| odocoileus wrote: | L.O. Graham is from the same wealthy multiracial class as his wife. As we've established repeatedly on this board, phenotype doesn't correspond absolutely to genotype, and there is substantial phenotypic variation within families.
Both Graham and his wife identify as black Americans. Both Graham and his wife are of mixed European and African ancestry. These are the facts of the matter. Insisting that Graham is racially "black" while his wife is racially "white" is both factually wrong, and morally wrong because it denies them their chosen identity. Imposing a cultural identity by eyeballing some photos is precisely what we should avoid. |
Agreed |
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zsana
Moderator
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan 2007 15:54 Post subject: |
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Powell wrote:
| Quote: | | he shows himself to be a supporter of forced hypodescent |
Black man with a nose job - adapted from the book,
"Member of the Club: Reflections on Life in a Racially Polarized World" - Brothers - Column
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n4_v26/ai_17320938
| Quote: | This is the one I want," I said, handing the open magazine to Dr. Wilson.
"Which?" he asked.
I scanned the well-lit New York City office, then crossed my legs with affected nonchalance. "I don't care. Any of those would do."
This Black plastic surgeon had no doubt met my kind before. There are so many of us young, well-to-do seekers 6f cosmetic enhancement who bear a strange resemblance to professional models, except that inside our portfolios are photos and print ads depicting other people's faces, features and body parts. They have the looks we wish we'd been born with, which we hope can be affixed, Mr. Potatohead-like, onto our bodies.
In the three years I had been collecting them, I had torn more than 50 shots of sharp-nosed, square-jawed, model-handsome, near-Black-looking men from magazines and some of the best store catalogs. I felt I had done my share of the legwork. Now I was ready to pay whatever it might cost and submit myself to whatever tests, X-rays, computer imaging or painful surgical procedures might be necessary.
Dr. Wilson flapped ahead. "Which magazine are these pictures from?"
I looked at the pages. "The Brooks Brothers catalog. I know what you're going to say," I interrupted. "You can't make me look like those guys because they have White noses. But those are all Black men on these pages--all Black."
It was the least Black-looking collection of Black men either one of us had ever seen. He looked down at the brownest of my men.
"You must at least be able to do that," I ventured.
That nose didn't work. But eventually we found one that did, and I entered a hospital on Manhattan's Upper West Side to undergo a rhinoplasty.
Although this surgery is done nearly 100,000 times a year, I felt my case was different. In the recovery room I became certain I had just-assaulted my identity, and my people. I wondered what my father would think--raised in the segregated South, educated in an almost exclusively Black world where a Black man with a nose job was an oxymoron. All my life I had had the same nostrils, bridge and profile as his. But the success of my operation would be measured according to how different from his my nose would now look--a shameful contrast to make with someone I loved.
My conflict went beyond my family to friends and people I didn't know. In fact, I discovered that many Whites also perceive a Black person's cosmetic surgery as a sign of self-hatred or the desire to be less Black--an accusation aimed at singer Michael Jackson, who, in spite of claims about a rare skin disease, pinched his nose, bleached his skin, tattooed his eves, enhanced his chin and straightened his hair.
Because I've narrowed my nose, some of my Black friends say I'm denying my ethnicity, and some of my White friends--even those who've had nose jobs--say I'm typical of the young Black professional who wants to assimilate into White culture. The media images and the White kids who surrounded me when I was a child may, in fact, have caused me to judge my own attractiveness according to another group's standard. But in the end, I realize the absurdity of defending my decision. After all, are White people asked to explain why they tan their skin, thicken their lips or curl their hair?
My friends have discovered that I am no less Black than I was before the operation. I have the same Black friendships, support the same Black causes and maintain the same Black consciousness. To view my nose job as anything more than a cosmetic procedure would be to suggest that the culture, feelings and history of Black people are awfully superficial. Lawrence Otis Graham is a corporate attorney and teaches at Fordham University in New York City. Member of the Club: Reflections on Life in a Racially Polarized World [C] 1995, from which this is adapted, is his eleventh book. It is reprinted by arrangement with HarperCollins Publishers, Inc. |
COPYRIGHT 1995 Essence Communications, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group |
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Fledgist
Moderator
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
{Posts: 235 }
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan 2007 22:42 Post subject: |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | G-Man wrote: | | But Taylor's freedom of speech is constitutionally protected by virtue of his U.S. citizenship not his race. |
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if non-citizens within the U.S. (resident aliens, vistors) also enjoy the same Bill of Rights protections as citizens? |
The short answer: yes.
The long answer: The Fourteenth Amendment extends the protections of due process to all persons in the US. |
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