Quote:
3a
Do not attribute motives to them. Do not try to ridicule them.
Sassassin distorting again:
Quote:
Actually what power do I have to deny anyone their "right" to be "black"?
This accusation usually arises when I point out that Gregory Howard Williams and his ilk are not truthful when they claim that they had "no choice" but to be "black." They then whine that I or "the multiracial police" are trying to deprive them of the "choice" they claim they never had. Williams, Matthews and others like them DO have the POWER to deny white and other nonblack identities to others because they are actively promoted as role models by the liberal and black media. Kids who are trying to decide on their identities will be told that they have no choice. That is why any dissent must be silenced, right?
They have as much power as you do. And they have as much right to talk of their experiences as do you
Let's get this straight. You are claiming that I have as much power and influence as these black-identified, white-phenotype authors who are being celebrated in newspapers, radio and television all over the country?
Frank never said the book was selling THAT well!
I have never overtly denied being mixed nor 'Black', but people will know that my preference is mixed. Now, that will ruffle feathers admongst many White and Black Americans, but that is the truth.
When I was 18 (in 1986), I drove from Miami to Ft. Worth, TX, with my best friend, and while I was driving, I got pulled over for speeding in Lake Charles, LA. I was, in fact, speeding and deserved to be pulled over and ticketed. BUT, instead of writing the ticket and sending us on our way, the state trooper asked me to get out of the car and said, "Ma'am, are you a white female or a black female?" I, being 18 and flippant said, "Pick your favorite!" And the state trooper shook his head and said, "I'm sorry, but in the state of Louisiana, you've got to be either black or white." It was such a problem for him that I refused to pick one that he called 2 more cars to the scene. For 45 minutes, they made me stand behind the car on the side of a major highway while the 5 state troopers looked at me and argued among themselves. And, for me, it was one of those moments after which nothing was ever the same again.
To be clear here, I was being ogled in a non-sexual way, and the discussion they were having among themselves was all about the fact that I was too dark for this and too light for that. In the end, I received a ticket that bears both a B and a W in the Race box. I still have the ticket. It still pisses me off. I'd like to think that the time is now here, when we can BE biracial without harrassment. To hell with ruffled feathers, I say.
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 02:32 Post subject: Re: A few thoughts
davidmatthews wrote:
...but love is where I look for change, and there were more marriages between black and white in the 70’s than there are today, which is a major way I measure racial progress. When people commit to a love. A life with a person of a different race is where I get happy. But we have declined in that area since the kaleidoscopic days of the 70’s. That makes me blue.
Where are you getting these numbers, David? I was just reading (I wish I could remember where!) that the opposite is true...that there are now more interracial "unions" than ever. I remembered the article because of their strange and strategic use of the word "union," instead of marriage.
Is there anyone here who can point me to post-2000 census data, BEFORE the numbers of biracial and multiracial people get pulled into the Black category? Thanks!
sin wrote: Quote:
But then again, AD, you have been guilty of trying to deny light skinned people their right to identify as black if they so chose.
Agreed. (To paraphrase Orwell: "Some are more equal than others..")
Salsassin and Triguy are both guilty of a rule violation:
Quote:
3a
Do not attribute motives to them. Do not try to ridicule them.
Actually what power do I have to deny anyone their "right" to be "black"?
This accusation usually arises when I point out that Gregory Howard Williams and his ilk are not truthful when they claim that they had "no choice" but to be "black." They then whine that I or "the multiracial police" are trying to deprive them of the "choice" they claim they never had. Williams, Matthews and others like them DO have the POWER to deny white and other nonblack identities to others because they are actively promoted as role models by the liberal and black media. Kids who are trying to decide on their identities will be told that they have no choice. That is why any dissent must be silenced, right?
This isn't disparagement, it's pointing out fact. Whether it's not your attacks on Williams or calling parents who raise their mixed children as "black," you believe that you have the right to impose a racial identity on others.
Look at how you attacked Shirley Hazlip and her husband on Amazon. You implied that they were trying to deceive people to the fact they were a mixed couple. It didn't matter that both people considered themselves ethnically black, you felt that you had a right to call into question their identification. You cast aspersions on the integrity and honor of two people who had a loving marriage. You did so for your racially motivated politics. Your politics trumped the Hazlips'. You didn't care whom you hurt. It was ruthless, cynical and amoral (immoral in my opinion) in the best tradition of Machiavelli.
Just now, you used "whine" as a way of dismissing the concerns and beliefs of others. Children "whine" with false, needy manipulative complaints. Your opponents "whine." "Whine" is one of your favorite words in your essays. Blacks "whine" about racism. Now Williams is a whiner. But if they are whiners, then why aren't you? Aor Salassin and me?
(And let's not even start with your constant complaints of black men "lusting" after the white genes of mulatto women.)
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 02:36 Post subject: David Matthews
David Matthews said:
Quote:
there are many self-defeating reasons for that. hell, i"m not happy that idiots like tupac and oj are heroes in the black community. but i also feel that governmental policies allow black people to remain in a sort of stasis. it's like ehtanol: there is NO REASON why this country should not switch to ethanol and be free of foreign oil in the next few years. there is NO REASON why this government should not offer poor people college vouchers, universal health care, and heightened inducements for teachers in public schools. i see a conspiracy there--one a will broaden to include poor people of all races. BUT... since african americans are suffering at a widely disproportionate rate, from poverty and all the ills that come with it, my first line of defense is with them.
Actually, reducing all America's problems to "white" versus "black" is exactly the kind of distortion any ruling class would love.
Read:
Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race by Matthew Frye Jacobson. Harvard University Press, 1998.
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell11.html
Let's get this straight. You are claiming that I have as much power and influence as these black-identified, white-phenotype authors who are being celebrated in newspapers, radio and television all over the country?
Frank never said the book was selling THAT well!
Not my fault you aren't as popular with the media.
I have never overtly denied being mixed nor 'Black', but people will know that my preference is mixed. Now, that will ruffle feathers admongst many White and Black Americans, but that is the truth.
When I was 18 (in 1986), I drove from Miami to Ft. Worth, TX, with my best friend, and while I was driving, I got pulled over for speeding in Lake Charles, LA. I was, in fact, speeding and deserved to be pulled over and ticketed. BUT, instead of writing the ticket and sending us on our way, the state trooper asked me to get out of the car and said, "Ma'am, are you a white female or a black female?" I, being 18 and flippant said, "Pick your favorite!" And the state trooper shook his head and said, "I'm sorry, but in the state of Louisiana, you've got to be either black or white." It was such a problem for him that I refused to pick one that he called 2 more cars to the scene. For 45 minutes, they made me stand behind the car on the side of a major highway while the 5 state troopers looked at me and argued among themselves. And, for me, it was one of those moments after which nothing was ever the same again.
To be clear here, I was being ogled in a non-sexual way, and the discussion they were having among themselves was all about the fact that I was too dark for this and too light for that. In the end, I received a ticket that bears both a B and a W in the Race box. I still have the ticket. It still pisses me off. I'd like to think that the time is now here, when we can BE biracial without harrassment. To hell with ruffled feathers, I say.
The positive part is that they couldn't slot you, no matter how hard they tried.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 02:59 Post subject:
yvette wrote:
Melani23 wrote:
I have never overtly denied being mixed nor 'Black', but people will know that my preference is mixed. Now, that will ruffle feathers admongst many White and Black Americans, but that is the truth.
When I was 18 (in 1986), I drove from Miami to Ft. Worth, TX, with my best friend, and while I was driving, I got pulled over for speeding in Lake Charles, LA. I was, in fact, speeding and deserved to be pulled over and ticketed. BUT, instead of writing the ticket and sending us on our way, the state trooper asked me to get out of the car and said, "Ma'am, are you a white female or a black female?" I, being 18 and flippant said, "Pick your favorite!" And the state trooper shook his head and said, "I'm sorry, but in the state of Louisiana, you've got to be either black or white." It was such a problem for him that I refused to pick one that he called 2 more cars to the scene. For 45 minutes, they made me stand behind the car on the side of a major highway while the 5 state troopers looked at me and argued among themselves. And, for me, it was one of those moments after which nothing was ever the same again.
To be clear here, I was being ogled in a non-sexual way, and the discussion they were having among themselves was all about the fact that I was too dark for this and too light for that. In the end, I received a ticket that bears both a B and a W in the Race box. I still have the ticket. It still pisses me off. I'd like to think that the time is now here, when we can BE biracial without harrassment. To hell with ruffled feathers, I say.
In Louisiana? Wonder what they'd have done if you said, "Creole!"?
Checked the black box, I guess. A cette jour, les bontemps n'ont pas roule.
Strictly interpreting Rule 3b, all three of you (AD, Sal, and Triguy) have directly attributed motives to other members in this thread. The difference lies in your ability to support these contentions with evidence and perhaps the language you use to describe their motivation. If you disagree with my assessment, please start a thread in the Site Management forum and provide specific examples.
As for ridicule, most members walk a fine line there rhetorically, as with sarcasm and pure old-fashioned smart-assedness (yes, that is a word...now). Again, all three of you are adept at cloaking it in high brow language when necessary. Honestly, you're all dishing it in this conversation from my perspective, so either take it when it comes your way or start a thread in the Site Management forum to discuss clear rule violations. Or - we could dial down the snarkiness and focus responses on what is said in lieu of speculation about personal motives.
Let's not derail this thread any further and stay on topic. There's good stuff here.
Quote:
3a
Do not attribute motives to them. Do not try to ridicule them.
Sassassin distorting again:
Quote:
Actually what power do I have to deny anyone their "right" to be "black"?
This accusation usually arises when I point out that Gregory Howard Williams and his ilk are not truthful when they claim that they had "no choice" but to be "black." They then whine that I or "the multiracial police" are trying to deprive them of the "choice" they claim they never had. Williams, Matthews and others like them DO have the POWER to deny white and other nonblack identities to others because they are actively promoted as role models by the liberal and black media. Kids who are trying to decide on their identities will be told that they have no choice. That is why any dissent must be silenced, right?
They have as much power as you do. And they have as much right to talk of their experiences as do you
Let's get this straight. You are claiming that I have as much power and influence as these black-identified, white-phenotype authors who are being celebrated in newspapers, radio and television all over the country?
Frank never said the book was selling THAT well!
But isn't the success of these authors part of your problem with them? Most of these people were nobodies before their books and stories were published. For whatever reason, greater talent, connections, chutzpah, or whatever, they were able to have their works published by major publishers. You weren't. Why don't they have a right to write and sell their memoirs as anyone else? Good grief, you are always talking about liberals and communists, but here you are inveighing against the free market of ideas, angered whenever someone who doesn't share your opinion is able to sell her memoirs or ideas and achieves success--commercial or otherwise.
What was your response to Danzi Senna's works and success? Did you offer competing ideas for the intellectual market to compare? I think your responses to Senna on Salon.com speaks volumes about your lack of confidence in intellectual capitalism: You questioned whether Danzy Senna's parents weren't guilty of child abuse for raising her as ethnically black. You also questioned her mental health, calling Senna sick, a technique that the Soviets often used to squelch dissent-. Some people are more equal to give their opinions than others: Quite Orwellian.
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 05:49 Post subject: Re: A few thoughts
yvette wrote:
Where are you getting these numbers, David? I was just reading (I wish I could remember where!) that the opposite is true...that there are now more interracial "unions" than ever. I remembered the article because of their strange and strategic use of the word "union," instead of marriage.
Is there anyone here who can point me to post-2000 census data, BEFORE the numbers of biracial and multiracial people get pulled into the Black category? Thanks!
I'm Tasha and I'm younger than you by, what, 20 yrs and can say that I do not relate to your initial post much at all. Not to say that racism doesn't exist, that it's influence still isn't found. I'm saying that it's insignificant for me. When and where I grew up developed my identity as mixed. I'm pretty sure that this occured mostly outside the home since my mother adamently wants me to identify (at least legally) as black. Maybe it's because I didn't need to hail a cab . Maybe it's due to my upbringing being more raically diverse than yours (never thought I'd say that but the minorities apear to have more representation than what you describe of your childhood...far more hispanic, middle eastern, asian, and mixed kids (whatever their mix). Race wasn't all that important to the kids I grew up with and from what I can tell now, it's even less so for my siblings (who knows, maybe I just got lucky out of 3 states and 7 or 8 moves). I can only name one racialized experience in my childhood prior to middle school and it wasn't negative, just odd..and part of childhood ignorance. In middle school, the experience happened in 8th grade where I moved to poorer neighborhood and school and was snubbed largely from black and hispanic cliques. My friends were then largely gothic white with two exceptions. This doesn't mean all saw me as mixed. There were many who saw me as just black, but that was isolated and most of my friends quickly pick up that I identify as mixed. I've never had a person try to dispute it though they may not fully understand it. For me, this dichotomy of race is obsolete...I don't understand it fully as it has little weight in my life.
Truly, I believe the race is changing and will continue to do so. It'll probably take a good twenty years for the change to take greater effect in the public eye (as most in the public eye are not of my generation). But it's happening and will continue to do so.
This doesn't mean that America isn't still obsessed with race. If it weren't people wouldn't have a burning need to know my background. I'm saying there's more acceptance of multiple ethnicities/cultures/backgrounds within one person. Different obsession, I guess you could say...still wanting categorize but now for a growing cross section, people can be marked up with more than one side of racial lines without horror, proclamations of the person's obvious confusion, or forced insistence that they choose one.
That's my thoughts. Excuse whatever grammar issues...but I'm sort of in a rush as I've got work to do.
Last edited by BlueDreams on Thu 25 Jan 2007 05:17; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 12:54 Post subject: Re: A few thoughts
davidmatthews wrote:
...but love is where I look for change, and there were more marriages between black and white in the 70’s than there are today.
David is hereby asked to provide the source of this information. It appears to be grossly in error. In fact, according to the U.S. census, the Black/White intermarriage rate (the fraction of African-Americans with a White spouse) quintupled from 0.7 percent in 1970 to 3.9 percent in 2000.
The graph, from page 104 of Legal History of the Color Line, is reproduced below. The census-by-census numbers are available in http://backintyme.com/rawdata/intermarriage.zip. An official census publication showing the threefold increase from 1970 to 1990 is available at http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/ms-la/tabms-3.txt. Detailed instructions on how to download and tabulate the IPUMS raw data are provided in Appendix A of Legal History of the Color Line.
I have never overtly denied being mixed nor 'Black', but people will know that my preference is mixed. Now, that will ruffle feathers admongst many White and Black Americans, but that is the truth.
When I was 18 (in 1986), I drove from Miami to Ft. Worth, TX, with my best friend, and while I was driving, I got pulled over for speeding in Lake Charles, LA. I was, in fact, speeding and deserved to be pulled over and ticketed. BUT, instead of writing the ticket and sending us on our way, the state trooper asked me to get out of the car and said, "Ma'am, are you a white female or a black female?" I, being 18 and flippant said, "Pick your favorite!" And the state trooper shook his head and said, "I'm sorry, but in the state of Louisiana, you've got to be either black or white." It was such a problem for him that I refused to pick one that he called 2 more cars to the scene. For 45 minutes, they made me stand behind the car on the side of a major highway while the 5 state troopers looked at me and argued among themselves. And, for me, it was one of those moments after which nothing was ever the same again.
To be clear here, I was being ogled in a non-sexual way, and the discussion they were having among themselves was all about the fact that I was too dark for this and too light for that. In the end, I received a ticket that bears both a B and a W in the Race box. I still have the ticket. It still pisses me off. I'd like to think that the time is now here, when we can BE biracial without harrassment. To hell with ruffled feathers, I say.
In Louisiana? Wonder what they'd have done if you said, "Creole!"?
Checked the black box, I guess. A cette jour, les bontemps n'ont pas roule.
Some Creoles have 'other', White, and/or Black on race forms. A Creole friend in college dad had a Black and White driver's license. Black cop= Black ID, White cop=White ID. I was stopped in Mississippi (speeding yes) years ago and I had Other on my DL, the cop checked 'Other' for race.
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 16:19 Post subject: Re: David Matthews
Powell wrote:
David Matthews said:
Quote:
there are many self-defeating reasons for that. hell, i"m not happy that idiots like tupac and oj are heroes in the black community. but i also feel that governmental policies allow black people to remain in a sort of stasis. it's like ehtanol: there is NO REASON why this country should not switch to ethanol and be free of foreign oil in the next few years. there is NO REASON why this government should not offer poor people college vouchers, universal health care, and heightened inducements for teachers in public schools. i see a conspiracy there--one a will broaden to include poor people of all races. BUT... since african americans are suffering at a widely disproportionate rate, from poverty and all the ills that come with it, my first line of defense is with them.
Actually, reducing all America's problems to "white" versus "black" is exactly the kind of distortion any ruling class would love.
Read:
Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race by Matthew Frye Jacobson. Harvard University Press, 1998.
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell11.html
Again, I agree with AD. Green $ will always be the final divide.
And David:
Quote:
"....was jolted awake. there was lots of "how could this happen here?" things like that, and the manipulation by the republican party of evangelical blacks--the black vote actually turned the 04 election, without it, kerry would have won--into voting for a party with its worst interests at heart--anger and frighten me....."
RE: NO
I haven't lived in NO in years, but half my family lives there. People were TOLD to leave, but they did not/could not. These same people whined about gov't leaving them, but can find time/transportation to leave at other times. Hello? My Aunt was in the Superdome those days. Many Blacks acted like savages. There was no earthy reason to destroy the Superdome like they did. You know the druggies and gangs did most of the damage.
And yes, everything was sorry about the whole fiasco. After Katrina, I looked up the city and state evac. plans on-line. City buses were to be used! A Black mayor FAILED first, but the media chose to highlight Bush & Co. for political reasons. Miss. is almost re-built and yet, LA is still in decay. And yet, its all Bush's fault! That has earned you a honorary 'Negro, Please!'
I was there last month. But after K. The Times-Picayune (local paper) statictically showed it was the elderly and poor who mostly died - not mostly Blacks. They had each death tallied - it was like 55% elderly White folk who died. So much for 'George Bush doesn't care about Black people!"
Please read unbiased or multiple sources to get to the truth. Surface gleening doesn't go deep.
Repubs -
I am a Republican of color and we are not decieved. Honestly, Liberal ideas are NOT good for Blacks. Now, is there hate? Yes, enough to go around, but IMO, MOST problematic issues in the "Black Community" can be traced to self, not to racism. If color/racism was the sole reason, explain how/why Africans/ W. Indians do so well - of the 2nd and 3rd generation (not immigrants). Why most hard working Blacks do well. Hint: It's called a love for EDUCATION and self-esteem!
It's also called a healthy CULTURE. 'Blacks' have an unhealthy culture now. Liberals and their 'we must help darkee' policies hurt more than help. Multi-factorial issues/reasons, yes, but .....Black people need to stop looking to gov't to save them. Be responsibe and save yourself!
Welfare broke up the home and deprived grown men/women from seeking honest hard work. Drugs (many Liberals want it to be legal ) destroyed many comunities. During Jim Crow the Black family was intact, not so today, why? Poor individual choices. It is Black men, not White men of TODAY who are responsible for all these fatherless Black children.
Ethanol
Ethanol and sugar alcohol takes space and isn't a high yield crop - successes in Brazil http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/6341/53/ cannot be easily extrapolated in America. We have poor urban planning and lack good mass transit systems.
Npr.org -
"Pimentel says when all of the important sources of energy needed to grow the corn and make the ethanol -- he lists 14 -- are included, it takes 70 percent more energy to make gallon of ethanol than it gives off. Since much of that energy comes from oil or coal, he says it's not a good alternative. Pimentel adds that ethanol does make considerable money for companies that grow corn.
Free education-
I attended public schools for most of my life and even was a teacher briefly. Education is tnhe easiest way out - not sports. Kids need 'Home training' and discipline! Non-English speaking immirants have drive and so must American kids who do not wish to end up poor. Some states even lend a hiand. In GA, all H.S students can receive a free college education if they make and keep the grades. A minimum "C" average for tuition waviers and book $ - their choice. Blacks are getting theirs too and keeping them if they continue to work hard (despite grade inflation). I got a minority scholarship which led to my BS and MA.
I chose to make education important - just like most educated, hard-working minorities. Make the grades, learn a trade, join the military, develop a skill. Stay out of trouble. Simple.
Universal health care = emergency rooms nowadays. Under 18/over 65 = medicare/caid. Working poor need coverage and it should be a mandatory job requriement only IF you work, for all the rest.
I've always lived in big cities with a free public hospital. I went w/o health care for 1 year and got free care at Charity Hospital in N.O. I have friends who forwent health care coverage to buy new cars, a vacation home, etc. and then hubby had a heart attack. He's okay, but a big scare. Choices.......#1 Don't have kids you cannot afford. #2 Work.
Please read Liberal, Libertarian, Independent, and conservative news to get the whole picture....... The answers are not always so cut and dried.
Man, what type of Black people are you haggin' with, sheesh. Everybody's keeping the Black Man down, yada, yada, yada... Please stay away from the race hustlers like 'Jessie and Al' and their ilk. You'll learn..... you are still new at this.
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 22:24 Post subject: offline for a bit
hey everybody,
i've been swamped with writing assignments and thus haven't been able to check in here; as soon as i can get some air i will read these posts, which will probably teach me a thing or two about a thing or two
Posted: Wed 24 Jan 2007 23:14 Post subject: while i have a sec
in response to:
David is hereby asked to provide the source of this information. It appears to be grossly in error. In fact, according to the U.S. census, the Black/White intermarriage rate (the fraction of African-Americans with a White spouse) quintupled from 0.7 percent in 1970 to 3.9 percent in 2000.
my lament was imprecise: i was talking (again, imprecisely) about the decline of black/white marriages as a proportion among mixed marriages:
Black/white interracial married couples have increased seven-fold since 1960, from 51,000 to 363,000 in 2000. As a percentage of all married couples, this type more than tripled during the period. However, black/white marriages, which represented 34% of all interracial marriages (40,491) in 1960, fell to 24.7% of all interracial marriages (1,464,000) in 2000.
The rate of interracial marriage, however, is still relatively uncommon: in 2002, only 2.9 percent of all marriages were interracial, according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census.
and shows an overall increase (as can be expected with population increase); but a decline in a proportionate sense--relative to population, since the early 1980's (which was the peak for black white--no doubt as boomer, idealistic hippies decided to act upon their idealism; which is the only reason i am here, to an extent, thank you hippies!)
marriages between black and white make up one of the smallest percentages of interracial unions, actually LESS than they were even a decade ago. you're right about my imprecision about the 70's--probably just my memories of the era, where i definitely saw a heckuva lot more black white couples than today. but i hate anecdotal evidence, so i apologize.
'
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. Maybe it's due to my upbringing being more raically diverse than yours (never thought I'd say that but the minorities apear to have more representation than what you describe of your childhood...far more hispanic, middle eastern, asian, and mixed kids (whatever their mix). Race wasn't all that important to the kids I grew up with and from what I can tell now, it's even less so for my siblings (who knows, maybe I just got lucky out of 3 states and 7 or 8 moves). I can only name one racialized experience in my childhood prior to middle school and it wasn't negative, just odd..and part of childhood ignorance. In middle school, the experience happened in 8th grade where I moved to poorer neighborhood and school and was snubbed largely from black and hispanic cliques. My friends were then largely gothic white with two exceptions. This doesn't mean all saw me as mixed. There were many who saw me as just black, but that was isolated and most of my friends quickly pick up that I identify as mixed. I've never had a person try to dispute it though they may not fully understand it. For me, this dichotomy of race is obsolete...I don't understand it fully as it has little weight in my life.
I was stopped in Mississippi (speeding yes) years ago and I had Other on my DL, the cop checked 'Other' for race. 
The answers are not always so cut and dried.
