The Study of Racialism

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 02:46 Post subject: Africa

Sorry fellow. I am not an immigrant in the U.S.

Now, let's get serious. What are you trying to prove? That Subsaharan Africa is just fine? I don't think so. I think Subsaharan Africa is in very bad shape and need help. At least, that is what shows on TV every single help agency worldwide.

Are you telling me what the news show is not the actual truth? Is all an invention? I don't think so.

The U.N. statistics are pretty bad for Africa.

Infant mortality

Per capita

Life expectancy

And the pattern is the same in analphabetism, number of professionals, urbanization, drinking water, and any other variable you pick.

The sad true is that at the 60s Africa, Asia and Latin America were at the same level of development. Not anymore.

Omar

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 03:03 Post subject:

I never said Sub-Sahara Africa was "fine" I said you were misrepresenting how bad it really is.

This is like saying.

Well Washington D.C. has a high crime rate but it is localized to the SE area of the city and other areas are fairly safe.

Instead of saying...Washington D.C. is a dangerous city and if you go there you will likely be killed, much more dangerous than NY.

Well that is true in a sense, but widely inaccurate. There is a difference.

I provided data from interpol that shows even though certain nations in Africa are slightly poorer than those in Latin America the crime rate (on major indicator of standard of living) was far far lower, even lower than the United States.

If Latin America is such paradise why are people murdering each other at 5X the rate as in the United States. It can not be poverty, Africans are poorer and do not murder each other at that rate.

As far as Infant Mortality..that is bad, but most of the continent is no worse than Indonesia or India. Some countries, even in the SubSahara region are on par with Latin America or better than most of it. Such as Gabon, Botswana, Nambia, Angloa...

Going back to level standards of living in Latin America, Africa, and Asia...are you joking. Where is the statstics to prove this.

Don't tell me one country...you are talking about a continent, I want to see data that shows most of Africa before independence in the 1960's had an equivalent standard of living to Asia and Latin America.

Where is the source of this information?

I would say that Korea, Singapore, and Thailand had a lower standard of living than most of Latin America in after World War II. What happened to Latin America? They have been independent from Spain and Portugal for well over a century but still way behind Europe and much of East Asia? What happened? Why can't Latin America generate wealth on a similar level to Canada, US, EU, and Japan. Why did Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia surpass most of Latin America in wealth and education?

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 03:13 Post subject: Crime rate

Crime rate is not the key indicator as you say, at all.

Life expectancy it is.

Does not matter if you are shoot, you died of hunger, malary or HIV. You are dead, anyways.

In Africa still most people is analphabet. What future could they have? At least for the next generation?

Now, for violence, it is very well known that countries that have desorganized police departments (if have any) usually don't record the murders. You start to record it when you have a police.

Now, nowhere in Latin America has happened that 1 million people were death by machete during a month carnage like it happened when the Hutus decided to get rid of the Tutsis. That's more than the people that died violently in Colombia in decades.

And you keep mentioning Colombia, as if in Nigeria it would be better. It is true that country is very dangerous indeed, like the city of Rio and Sao Paulo and certain bordering cities of Mexico. But, would you believe many other cities are more peaceful that the U.S.?

Latin America is not a paradyse as yet. [ad hominem edited out -- FWS]

Omar

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 13:43 Post subject:

fwsweet · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 14:02 Post subject:

Guys, I hate to interrupt when y'all are posting such interesting information, but you are arguing at cross-purposes.

Omar is interpreting Dragon's criticism of South America as Afrocentrism. Personally, I see no evidence of Afrocentrism in anything that Dragon has written.

And Dragon is interpreting Omar's criticism of Africa as "racism." As the term is strictly defined in The Rules, paragraph B.4.e, I see no evidence of "racism" in what Omar has written. I do see great deal of chauvinism (national pride) and more than a bit of "colorism" in Omar's opinions (see The Rules, paragraph B.4.f). But no more than in many other residents of Chiile, Argentina, or in Philadelphia's African-American community of the 1930s (or in my own relatives in PR for that matter). Colorism is troubling, of course, but it helps to focus on content rather than on the writer's opinions. (Otherwise we would all reject many of our own elderly relatives.)

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 14:27 Post subject:

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 14:57 Post subject: Colorism

I dissagre.

I am looking for realism.

I will try to make this plain clear, so it does not let another interpretations.

How we can CHANGE the reality of Africa (or anywhere else) if we don't accept that things are going badly? At least so far, of course. Things can be change in the future, but not if people pretends everything is going fine.

I believe we can't change reality with rethoric, but we can improve it doing things, by working on it.

What I have noticed in many people of African descend that somehow they pretend that changing the image will change reality, by writing about it and arguing about it. You can't change history by creating myths, nor it is possible to change the future ignoring the present. We should accept things as they are and then go ahead and alter them.

We can't hide from reality puting the head underground like the ostrich do. We have to work to twist it and to build a new beginning.

That's my though,

Is a problem of attitude, I believe. Not of color of skin.

I know because I am Latino, and we don't accept reality like it is. We fight for a better future.

Omar

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 15:31 Post subject:

I don't think anyone has denied problems on the continent, what you do when you paint the entire continent with a broad brush of disaster is discourage aid, investment, etc in nations like Ghana, Botswana, Sengal, Gabon, South Africa which are stable and have growing economies. THese nations in turn will likely invest (as South Africa and Nigeria do) in neighboring nations.

In East Asia, it began with Japan, who later invested heavily in South Korea and Taiwan...from their Hong Kongers and Taiwanese interacted with Chinese communities in South East Asia spreading business and trade, helping to lift up those nations.

If we had painted all of Asia with a brush of disaster that would have been bad.

I honestly do not believe your intention is to help anything if that was the case you would have made critisims but at the same time put forth ideas of how to improve a situation.

All you did was basically do this...

as a parent would berate a child..."you are no good, you are always bad, you never have done anything of value, you are horrible, look at how you act...etc".

There is a place for critism but if that is all you come with that is hardly condusive to upliftment. How many children perform well by being berated on a daily basis?

Africans are not children, but Africans are also not all doing bad all the time as you tried to paint it, that is a lie.

To do that only hurts them because it turns people off to investment opprotunities on the continent, that is my point.

In Asia you don't say Thailand is horrible beacause Laos to its East and Mayanmar to its West are. We look at the individual nations and subregion not the entire continent. You, as well as many others, do not make that distiction in Africa...

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 16:35 Post subject:

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 16:57 Post subject:

I think you are confusing race with ethnicity.

Asians help Asians of their nationality primarily.

HIspanics and Arabs help those who have a Latin culture and speak Spanish/Portugese (sometimes helping out in Haiti) as well.

African Americans have no real ethnic ties to Africa...we are muts. THe only ties to Africa we have are soley racial for the most part (unless you are one of the few whose parents immigrated directly from Africa).

Basically there is less incentive to help people you do not have a close cultural connection to.

I would say that African Americans were instumental in ending Apartheid in South Africa, they have also been involved in Ghana and Liberia thoughout their histories. African Americans (such as Oprah, Jay-Z) and many others do projects in South Africa and Angola respectively.

For the most part it is not an issue of wanting to help, the fact is until 1.5 generations ago most black americans did not travel abroad and were less worldy than white Americans. Mainly due to poverty, now even though most black Americans are middle class I do not think they travel abroad as often as white Americans who are of the same education and socio-economic class. Actually I would say that Americans in general are not very worldly and do not travel as much internationally as Europeans and Japanese do. Sad

When I lived in Japan, when I heard someone that sound like they were America, if they were not military, 8/10 they were Canadian. Confused

I think your plan has merit, but it is really not that simple, if that was the case...white people from all over the world would be flying to Russia, Georgia, and other poor white nations to "lift them up"....that is not really happening...although there are a handful of NGOs...

I could really say the same thing, there are plenty of blacks in Latin America and the Carribean and I don't think they do relief work in Africa much or travel their...but for Rastafarians going to Ethiopia or something...this is unfortunate...I would say most of the people actively doing relief work are white people from the US, Great Britian, France, and some Scandanavian countries.

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 18:11 Post subject:

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 18:21 Post subject:

oevega · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 19:48 Post subject:

Dragon Horse · Posted: Tue 20 Feb 2007 19:53 Post subject:

As I said African Americans have done things in Africa in the past...but not on a consistant basis. There were arrests a few months ago of many black congressional members for illegally protesting what was going on in Darfur for example.

I agree maybe more should be done...but then again you have to consider 25% of blacks still live in poverty in America, there is a lot to be done here as well. We are not as affluent as a group as Jews for example who often visit and financially support Israel. Africa is also a continent and not a country so you are talking about a huge land area...with only lose racial connection to it...not ethnic/cultural (well not really).

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

oevega · Posted: Wed 21 Feb 2007 01:25 Post subject: