Posted: Sun 15 Apr 2007 07:50 Post subject: "Black" Europeans
I just found this interesting site at the "British Library" online. The site discusses the lives of several famous Europeans of African ancestry, like Coleridge-Taylor, Pushkin and Dumas. As I read several of the essays, I was struck by how much their African ancestry meant to them and the racism that many of them experienced in their lives. Dumas was regularly attacked for being a "Negro" or a "savage." Pushkin was teased as a child for the African influence in his facial structure.
Posted: Sun 15 Apr 2007 11:51 Post subject: Re: "Black" Europeans
triguy wrote:
Frank, you mentioned that the term "black" was/is not in common use for mixed people in Europe. That doesn't seem to be the case here.
First, Mike Phillips (photo above) was hired by the library to write articles for Black History Month. In real-life, he is a writer of crime fiction. He is not a scholar. He is a British West Indian who immigrated to the UK in the 1950s. This does not suggest that what he writes is not accurate. Not at all. It simply means that the fact that his writing uses "black" in this context does not mean that 19th-century Europeans used it thus. To see whether they used the term in that way, it would be best to find a contemporary quote using it in that way. To my knowledge, I have never claimed that modern-day British West Indian crime fiction writers hired to write articles for Black History month for modern readers do not use the word thus.
Second, could you please point me to the context for my mention of the usage of "black" in 19th-century Europe? You may be conflating word-usage with the existence of prejudice based upon appearance.
Posted: Sun 15 Apr 2007 16:16 Post subject: Re: "Black" Europeans
fwsweet wrote:
triguy wrote:
Frank, you mentioned that the term "black" was/is not in common use for mixed people in Europe. That doesn't seem to be the case here.
First, Mike Phillips (photo above) was hired by the library to write articles for Black History Month. In real-life, he is a writer of crime fiction. He is not a scholar. He is a British West Indian who immigrated to the UK in the 1950s. This does not suggest that what he writes is not accurate. Not at all. It simply means that the fact that his writing uses "black" in this context does not mean that 19th-century Europeans used it thus. To see whether they used the term in that way, it would be best to find a contemporary quote using it in that way. To my knowledge, I have never claimed that modern-day British West Indian crime fiction writers hired to write articles for Black History month for modern readers do not use the word thus.
Second, could you please point me to the context for my mention of the usage of "black" in 19th-century Europe? You may be conflating word-usage with the existence of prejudice based upon appearance.
My apologies, I can't point to your using "black" in the 19th century. As the article on Dumas points out, he was regularly called a Negro by friend and enemy alike. His perceived race amongst society was not "white" but of "mulatto" or "Negro."
You have said that "black" is not used for modern people of mixed ancestry in other countries. The fact that the author of articles that appear in the British Library is West Indian shouldn't make a difference since, of course, the articles have to go through an editorial review procedure by the staff. The final arbiter of the articles and use of the word "black" were the editorial staff of the British Library not Phillips. Moreover, just because one is crime novelist, does not take away from one's ability to write a non-fiction article on a historical figure.
My point in all of this was understanding was to point out these articles on historical figures. The articles present a compact insight into the lives of several famous Europeans and how their African ancestry had an impact on their lives. "Race" had an impact on the thinking and lives of these men. I learned things from them.
On this site, I've read white-identified members argue that Dumas was "white" and the same for Pushkin. However, both men experienced bigotry in some part of their life for their African ancestry. This affected how they viewed themselves and made an impact on their writings.
As people put labels on each other today, other put labels on them. The labels that people today want to afix to Dumas aren't necessarily accurate to how he was seen by others or how he saw himself.
Dumas based the most charismatic Musketeer was based on Dumas' father. Pushkin wrote a novel about his great-grandfather proudly. These weren't men who were divorced from their "blackness." They weren't ashamed of being of African ancestry. These articles are important.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1876 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Sun 15 Apr 2007 17:10 Post subject:
Dumas was routinely teased as a child for being a mulatto. Pushkin, only 1/8 black still had kinky hair and tannish skin. He considered himself (yes himself) ugly due to it.
Yes, there phenotype due to their african ancestory affected their outlook on themselves and their place in the world.
Posted: Sun 15 Apr 2007 23:46 Post subject: Re: "Black" Europeans
triguy wrote:
On this site, I've read white-identified members argue that Dumas was "white" and the same for Pushkin. However, both men experienced bigotry in some part of their life for their African ancestry. This affected how they viewed themselves and made an impact on their writings.
I agree. I was addressing only your understanding that 19-century Europeans used the word "black" in this context. They did not. The used "Negro," "Mulatto," and the like.
triguy wrote:
As people put labels on each other today, other put labels on them. The labels that people today want to afix to Dumas aren't necessarily accurate to how he was seen by others or how he saw himself. Dumas based the most charismatic Musketeer was based on Dumas' father. Pushkin wrote a novel about his great-grandfather proudly.
I agree.
triguy wrote:
These weren't men who were divorced from their "blackness." They weren't ashamed of being of African ancestry.
I agree. But this is no different from the attitude of most Latinos today. I am not sure what anyone can conclude from this. I would not conclude that this of itself means that they would have opposed slavery, for example.
triguy wrote:
These articles are important.
You have the right to express you personal tastes.
Dragon Horse wrote:
Dumas was routinely teased as a child for being a mulatto. Pushkin, only 1/8 black still had kinky hair and tannish skin. He considered himself (yes himself) ugly due to it. Yes, there phenotype due to their african ancestory affected their outlook on themselves and their place in the world.
Mary Lee and I were talking about this very thing on a long drive to a gig this morning. I said that kids taunt each other. Every kid is taunted for whatever makes him/her different. Some are taunted because they are too tall, others because they are too short, too outgoing, too shy, too fat, too thin, too smart, too dumb, etc. I would stake a great deal of money that everyone reading these words was taunted in grade school for always raising their hand first in class or for being too studious.
Jaime (Salsassin) and I both come from societies with unimodal admixture distributions. And we are both lighter than the mean (in Peru and PR, respectively). We both recall vividly being taunted mercilessly throughout grade school for being "blanquito" (too white). And so, I have little patience with Dumas or anyone who complains that they were taunted for being too black. Hell, everyone gets taunted. And I don't complain that I was taunted for being "blanquito."
Mary Lee then replied, "But your autobiography does not mention that other kids teased you for being too white. Obviously, it did not affect you very deeply. On the other hand, Dumas's childhood taunting for being too black holds a prominent place in his autobiography. Obviously, it affected him very deeply indeed."
This was all a long way of saying that I agree with DH.
...
We both recall vividly being taunted mercilessly throughout grade school for being "blanquito" (too white). And so, I have little patience with Dumas or anyone who complains that they were taunted for being too black. Hell, everyone gets taunted. And I don't complain that I was taunted for being "blanquito."
...
Yes Frank,
It is so funny people called you "blanquito".
Sound cute in Spanish. Just kidding.
Now seriously, you should explain that in Spanish speaking countries, people make jokes of racial differences without real bad intentions. Yes, kids get upset at school, but is the way people is.
Even more, if Black people is called "Black" in Spanish in daily conversation and in a friendly manner, whitout offending.
Now seriously, you should explain that in Spanish speaking countries, people make jokes of racial differences without real bad intentions. Yes, kids get upset at school, but is the way people is.
That is the problem. We all tend to interpret others' experiences through the prism of our own childhood. I hated being taunted as a kid and wished that I could somehow make my skin darker. But by high school I realized that it would have made no difference. I would simply have been taunted for something else. As you say, in PR skin-tone taunting was no big deal (at least not to me) and so I tend to project that upon Dumas, just as Triguy projects his experiences. But, to be honest, none of us were kids in 19th-century France, so it is smarter to go by what Dumas himself wrote, rather than what modern writers project onto him.
oevega wrote:
Even more, if Black people is called "Black" in Spanish in daily conversation and in a friendly manner, whitout offending.
Oddly enough, "negro/a" is a very common term of endearment in PR, even between completely Euro-looking couples. I would translate it as "dear" or "honey." I have no idea of the origin of this usage.
There's taunting and then there's bullying. Children can tease each other but there's a point at which it becomes cruel and crippling. Many a child has been scarred psychologically by a bully, some have been crippled. Dismissing someone else's pain because your experience didn't hurt you is a callous. You don't know the intensity of the abuse Dumas suffered. States are passing anti-bullying laws for a reason.
There's taunting and then there's bullying. ... Dismissing someone else's pain because your experience didn't hurt you is a callous. You don't know the intensity of the abuse Dumas suffered. States are passing anti-bullying laws for a reason.
I agree, I agree! As I said, Mary Lee explained it to me. Sheesh!
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 16 Apr 2007 16:58 Post subject:
triguy wrote:
Frank,
There's taunting and then there's bullying. Children can tease each other but there's a point at which it becomes cruel and crippling. Many a child has been scarred psychologically by a bully, some have been crippled. Dismissing someone else's pain because your experience didn't hurt you is a callous. You don't know the intensity of the abuse Dumas suffered. States are passing anti-bullying laws for a reason.
What do you want to do, Triguy. Teach "political correcness" to five years old?
Children are cruel and they tease everyone. No matter you are red hair, have chinese eyes, are curly, light skin or dark skin, even handicapped, whatever. All are reason for theirs games.
Now, adults learn to be more respecfull of the other - usually.
Finally, we should not spect the state takes care of us all day long.
You don't know the intensity of the abuse Dumas suffered. States are passing anti-bullying laws for a reason.
Neither do you. None of us were around back then to know how intense this abuse was. You simply assume it that it must have been intense for Dumas in 19th Century France because today in the U.S. some would call similar teasing bullying and damaging enough one's psyche to pass laws outlawing such behavior.
Yes, everyone can remember being teased as a child. Context, however, is key. So is external validation. Here's an example: Overweight children are teases mercilessly and viciously. They are also bombarded by negative images, impressions and stereotypes. Where in our society at large are overweight people valued or preferred? In contrast, a blonde haired, blue eyed child could be teased mercilessly and viciously by other children for her hair and eye color. This child can find plenty of external validation that she is "okay," even beautiful, at least in the Western world. Positive media images of blue-eyed blondes are abundant.
This assessment in no way seeks to invalidate or belittle personal pain, but I do want to point out that, while childhood teasing is ubiquitous, it not all the same. Being teased for not fitting the mold on a micro level may be mitigated by fitting the mold on a macro level.
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