Thank you, A.D., for posting these links. I live in a town that is about 85-90% Hispanic/Latino. Many of the ones I've encountered deny that they have African ancestry but they're quick to "one-drop" others who do not speak Spanish.
Case in point: my ex had some friends from high school who are now married. Both are Hispanic, although I'm not sure if they're Cuban or what. The husband (we'll call him Ruben) is dark, with an olive complexion and thick black hair. His wife (we'll call her Julie) is lighter-skinned with a ruddy complexion and wavy blondish hair. My ex was one of the most militant black people I knew but took a perverse delight in spending time with these racist Latinos who threw the "N" word around constantly.
The wife in particular was not a nice person and seemed to think of herself as being completely free of African ancestry because she spoke Spanish and had fair hair. She was more hateful than any KKK member. When their daughter was born last year, she turned out looking very Asian with straight black hair and slanted eyes. I remember before she was born that my ex and another black American friend were teasing her by saying that the little one might turn out with dark skin because after all, her husband is dark.
She was visibly upset by this and countered it by saying: "He is Latin, NOT black. My grandmother would kill me if I had a black baby".
I wanted to shout: you NITWIT! Your husband has dark skin because he has African ancestry. It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed. I swear the racism and the sheer stupidity of my ex, his friends and family has made me more thankful to be a culturally enlightened individual.
Thank you, A.D., for posting these links. I live in a town that is about 85-90% Hispanic/Latino. Many of the ones I've encountered deny that they have African ancestry but they're quick to "one-drop" others who do not speak Spanish.
Case in point: my ex had some friends from high school who are now married. Both are Hispanic, although I'm not sure if they're Cuban or what. The husband (we'll call him Ruben) is dark, with an olive complexion and thick black hair. His wife (we'll call her Julie) is lighter-skinned with a ruddy complexion and wavy blondish hair. My ex was one of the most militant black people I knew but took a perverse delight in spending time with these racist Latinos who threw the "N" word around constantly.
The wife in particular was not a nice person and seemed to think of herself as being completely free of African ancestry because she spoke Spanish and had fair hair. She was more hateful than any KKK member. When their daughter was born last year, she turned out looking very Asian with straight black hair and slanted eyes. I remember before she was born that my ex and another black American friend were teasing her by saying that the little one might turn out with dark skin because after all, her husband is dark.
She was visibly upset by this and countered it by saying: "He is Latin, NOT black. My grandmother would kill me if I had a black baby".
I wanted to shout: you NITWIT! Your husband has dark skin because he has African ancestry. It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed. I swear the racism and the sheer stupidity of my ex, his friends and family has made me more thankful to be a culturally enlightened individual.
I've been pushing these facts for a long time. Some Latinos have tried to stop me - both those who claim NO dreaded "black blood at all (for themselves and most of their entire ethnic group) and a small minority who claim to be proud of partial African ancestry but want to find excuses to "one drop" Anglos and Louisiana Creoles.
When a reporter or historian claims that "In the U.S. one drop of black blood makes you black," I try to ask them about Latinos. Aren't Latinos "black" then? If they are NOT, then their Anglo and Creole counterparts are not "black" either. They KNOW that Latinos are part-black, put there seems to be a "gentleman's agreement" that they will not be "insulted" by having their "inferior" ancestry thrown in their faces. It is amazing how black elites and white liberals will lecture non-Hispanics of mixed ancestry, telling them that they should be "proud" of "blackness" (unlike the "passing" Anatole Broyard, Jean Toomer, etc.) but show RESPECT for Latinos by NOT calling them "black" or even part-black. The hypocrisy is too obvious.
This has been true in my experience as well. I completely agree with Powell.
Alot of White Americans, Latinos and AAs know this to be true, but somehow these groups are 'excused' because they have another ethnicity to cling to. That is why. Mixed-raced Americans of sole-B/W descent really don't have any other option until a multi-racial catergory is legalized. Or one is White enough and/or the SSA ancestry is distant enough (i.e Heather Lockler) to be considered soley White. I have had conversations with White Americans who acknowledge the SSA ancestry of Arabs/Middle Easterns as well.
But the same SSA % in these other groups is excused. Oh and Powell, you may want to add another group to the list. I have met some NAs who do claim partial SSA ancestry. So, you can add Native Americans to your 'escape hatch' list. Not only the 'maroon' groups who do acknowledge SSA ancestry like the Lumbee's (I googled NA and a Lumbee page came up with this guy:)
But other groups (non-Seminole) as well. But because they 'don't look Black' either, they get a pass just like curly-haired Mexicans do.
I have had conversations with too many White Americans who have told me of their African ancestry to put any value in the ODR. It only applies if you look partially Black and have a parent/grandparent in plain sight. Otherwise, you will be considered a White American, unless you say otherwise.
The Spaniards did a good job of indoctrinating the native peoples of the Americas, where they now resort to denying their African or Indian heritage so the saying 'Mas Papa que el Papa' (more catholic than the pope) can be seen in many of the mestizo-mulato groups.
Patricia Velasquez is one of the few Latinas who treasure her Wayuu roots from Venezuala and is a true person of the Americas.
The Spaniards did a good job of indoctrinating the native peoples of the Americas, where they now resort to denying their African or Indian heritage so the saying 'Mas Papa que el Papa' (more catholic than the pope) can be seen in many of the mestizo-mulato groups.
Patricia Velasquez is one of the few Latinas who treasure her Wayuu roots from Venezuala and is a true person of the Americas.
There are remnants of the caste system implemented by the Spaniards which had those of African and Amerindian background at the bottom of the barrel. With the history blacks have here in America, it is not that great a surprise that some Latino's would distance themselves from their black ancestry.
I remember before she was born that my ex and another black American friend were teasing her by saying that the little one might turn out with dark skin because after all, her husband is dark.
She was visibly upset by this and countered it by saying: "He is Latin, NOT black. My grandmother would kill me if I had a black baby".
I wanted to shout: you NITWIT! Your husband has dark skin because he has African ancestry. It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed.
I was one of those "oblivious" people with respect to the origin of fair-skinned people in my family and community. In a very similar fashion to what you describe, those in my family fiercely oppose interracial marriage with whites, and see no internal contradiction with that and the multi-hued makeup of our family. For example, my mother often makes disparaging comments about blacks who date and/or marry white people, and she married a white-skinned man.
I think the way people perceive 'race' is entirely social, and no one is "nitwitted" for not acknowledging ancestry that others might perceive from racial eyeballing; its all relative. The same follows for the "dark" latinos, whom many may perceive as being of african ancestry, but were not raised to see themselves that way, and come from cultures that do not acknowledge african ancestry (i.e Dominicans).
I also don't see the distinction between "race" and an "ethnicity" like Latino. Americans of hispanic ancestry commonly refer to their "race" as latino in social settings, and strongly believe that. I think that alone makes it a "race".
I also don't see the distinction between "race" and an "ethnicity" like Latino. Americans of hispanic ancestry commonly refer to their "race" as latino in social settings, and strongly believe that. I think that alone makes it a "race".
The above term is used too loosely because hispanic is a USAmerican term. People in "south of the border" do not use it since they refer to their own mestizo or indigena background! In the mid 80's, the California Chicanos used to refer to each other as 'raza' but it was essentially a indigena-mestiza assertion acknowledging their mostly native American roots in Azteca, which is California, albeit a colonized land!
I personally do not believe it is an escape hatch but again choice of words should not prevent those who want to escape their origins!
I agree, Phil. You seem to have missed one small detail, tho...
this person was "nitwitted" because of her racist views. She was inclined towards hating people of color. And she considered ALL Hispanics/Latinos to be white.
I think the way people perceive 'race' is entirely social, and no one is "nitwitted" for not acknowledging ancestry that others might perceive from racial eyeballing; its all relative. The same follows for the "dark" latinos, whom many may perceive as being of african ancestry, but were not raised to see themselves that way, and come from cultures that do not acknowledge african ancestry (i.e Dominicans).
More accurate to say many come from countries that may disparage African ancestry. Hence people from those countries deny it even when it is obvious. I've seen this with some Puerto Ricans and many Dominicans, though I believe this is changing with the latter group.
In a place like Mexico the national myth includes Spanish and Amerindian elements but not African. The fact that there is some African genetic influence in the population is difficult for some Mexicans and Chicanos to grasp because it is not evident in how most Mexican look or reflected in their culture. Of course there's also a little bit of the old Negrophobia at work too.
With Caribbean Latinos, however, it still remains difficult for me deal with people like the ones mentioned by pianoplayer111. These people live in a world of self-delusion, not because they do not see themselves a black, but because they've convinced themselves that their nationalities are devoid of any African genetic or cultural influence.
Posted: Mon 17 Mar 2008 13:30 Post subject: Re: Latino escape hatches
Powell wrote:
When a reporter or historian claims that "In the U.S. one drop of black blood makes you black," I try to ask them about Latinos. Aren't Latinos "black" then? If they are NOT, then their Anglo and Creole counterparts are not "black" either. They KNOW that Latinos are part-black, put there seems to be a "gentleman's agreement" that they will not be "insulted" by having their "inferior" ancestry thrown in their faces. It is amazing how black elites and white liberals will lecture non-Hispanics of mixed ancestry, telling them that they should be "proud" of "blackness" (unlike the "passing" Anatole Broyard, Jean Toomer, etc.) but show RESPECT for Latinos by NOT calling them "black" or even part-black. The hypocrisy is too obvious.
I'm not sure if many or most of these people are aware that Latinos (as a group) are part-black. Many U.S. residents outside of the northeast still see ALL Hispanics as some kind of Mexican, and Mexicans as some kind of mestizo or Amerindian person. You'd be surprised at how ignorant even educated Americans are about Latin America outside of Mexico.
In general, though, I agree with you as I've seen this countless time growing up in New York City. Only the most clueless person there is unaware that Latinos have African ancestry, but many refuse to apply "The Rule" to them because there's too many of them who'll challenge you if you do (I've seen this on more than one occasion) or people embrace simple mental inconsistency when it come to the “The Rule’s” application.
Posted: Mon 17 Mar 2008 13:59 Post subject: Re: Latino escape hatches
G-Man wrote:
I'm not sure if many or most of these people are aware that Latinos (as a group) are part-black.
I think that it comes down to two elements: The first, as you say, is sheer ignorance. I have had Anglo-Americans tell me to my face (even after I explain that I am Puerto Rican) that Hispanics have no African ancestry--that they are all Spanish-Amerind hybrids.
But the second is muddy thinking, and it is just as important. I suspect that most Americans simply cannot distinguish between "sub-Saharan ancestry" and "African-American" ethnicity. No matter how many times you explain that these are two different concepts, you get a blank stare followed by either: "So you are saying that all Hispanics are actually black (meaning A-A)." or "So you are saying that Hispanics have no black blood (meaning SSA)?"
How Americans see the ODR is the perfect example of this. When Americans say that the ODR is ubiquitous, they are thinking of the soul patrol. Like every other evil of racialism, polite U.S. rhetoric demands that Whites should somehow be blamed for it and that it must be attributed to weird genetics. Hence, a drop of "Black blood" makes you Black. But the very same people deny that Hispanics have "Black blood," because polite U.S. rhetoric demands that they respect a culturally powerful ethnic self-identity by denying that blackness is genetic.
The cognitive dissonance that such muddled thinking causes is obvious from the outside. But many, if not most, are too mentally clumsy to grasp that they are conflating two different concepts. They can respond to the intellectual challenge only by getting flustered, or angry, or by simply ignoring the dissonance inside their own heads.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 17 Mar 2008 14:29 Post subject:
I'll never forget a discussion my classmates were having at a school-bus stop when I was in fourth grade. Victor, a Puerto Rican who looked predominantly sub-Saharan, and Gail, an African American, were the only non-European looking people in our school, and they were new that year. Some kids regarded them as curiosities. Cindy, an Irish-American girl, insisted that Gail was "Black" but Victor was not "Black" because he was "Spanish." This, despite the fact that Victor clearly looked more African than Gail. Another girl, Maria, who was of European Spanish descent, objected to this use of the word Spanish. She said, "I'm Spanish. Victor can't be Spanish, because he's Black." Victor, probably the wisest of the bunch, said, "Look, I'm Puerto Rican. Isn't that enough? Geez! What do y'all want from me?!"
The Spaniards did a good job of indoctrinating the native peoples of the Americas, where they now resort to denying their African or Indian heritage so the saying 'Mas Papa que el Papa' (more catholic than the pope) can be seen in many of the mestizo-mulato groups.
Patricia Velasquez is one of the few Latinas who treasure her Wayuu roots from Venezuala and is a true person of the Americas.
Posted: Sun 26 Oct 2008 00:15 Post subject: Re: Latino escape hatches
Powell wrote:
pianoplayer111 wrote:
Thank you, A.D., for posting these links. I live in a town that is about 85-90% Hispanic/Latino. Many of the ones I've encountered deny that they have African ancestry but they're quick to "one-drop" others who do not speak Spanish.
Case in point: my ex had some friends from high school who are now married. Both are Hispanic, although I'm not sure if they're Cuban or what. The husband (we'll call him Ruben) is dark, with an olive complexion and thick black hair. His wife (we'll call her Julie) is lighter-skinned with a ruddy complexion and wavy blondish hair. My ex was one of the most militant black people I knew but took a perverse delight in spending time with these racist Latinos who threw the "N" word around constantly.
The wife in particular was not a nice person and seemed to think of herself as being completely free of African ancestry because she spoke Spanish and had fair hair. She was more hateful than any KKK member. When their daughter was born last year, she turned out looking very Asian with straight black hair and slanted eyes. I remember before she was born that my ex and another black American friend were teasing her by saying that the little one might turn out with dark skin because after all, her husband is dark.
She was visibly upset by this and countered it by saying: "He is Latin, NOT black. My grandmother would kill me if I had a black baby".
I wanted to shout: you NITWIT! Your husband has dark skin because he has African ancestry. It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed. I swear the racism and the sheer stupidity of my ex, his friends and family has made me more thankful to be a culturally enlightened individual.
I've been pushing these facts for a long time. Some Latinos have tried to stop me - both those who claim NO dreaded "black blood at all (for themselves and most of their entire ethnic group) and a small minority who claim to be proud of partial African ancestry but want to find excuses to "one drop" Anglos and Louisiana Creoles.
When a reporter or historian claims that "In the U.S. one drop of black blood makes you black," I try to ask them about Latinos. Aren't Latinos "black" then? If they are NOT, then their Anglo and Creole counterparts are not "black" either. They KNOW that Latinos are part-black, put there seems to be a "gentleman's agreement" that they will not be "insulted" by having their "inferior" ancestry thrown in their faces. It is amazing how black elites and white liberals will lecture non-Hispanics of mixed ancestry, telling them that they should be "proud" of "blackness" (unlike the "passing" Anatole Broyard, Jean Toomer, etc.) but show RESPECT for Latinos by NOT calling them "black" or even part-black. The hypocrisy is too obvious.
I really don't understand why you feel that way. Latinos are by no means considered White in the US. They are considered mixed just like mixed-race Creoles. So where is the so-called escape hatch?
I'll never forget a discussion my classmates were having at a school-bus stop when I was in fourth grade. Victor, a Puerto Rican who looked predominantly sub-Saharan, and Gail, an African American, were the only non-European looking people in our school, and they were new that year. Some kids regarded them as curiosities. Cindy, an Irish-American girl, insisted that Gail was "Black" but Victor was not "Black" because he was "Spanish." This, despite the fact that Victor clearly looked more African than Gail. Another girl, Maria, who was of European Spanish descent, objected to this use of the word Spanish. She said, "I'm Spanish. Victor can't be Spanish, because he's Black." Victor, probably the wisest of the bunch, said, "Look, I'm Puerto Rican. Isn't that enough? Geez! What do y'all want from me?!"
I don't know why anyone would make a statement like that. You can be Black and Puerto Rican. I can just attribute it to the ignorance of 4th grade school-children. People here on this thread make it seem like Latinos are denying the obvious. Latinos come in many different shades. Some look White and want to be identified as such. That's all. Others are olive-skinned just like some Italian-Americans and some Spaniards like Antonio Banderas. Personally, the black/white label should be obliterated entirely and people should just be labeled as Irish American, Italian-American, Cuban-American, etc.
Thank you, A.D., for posting these links. I live in a town that is about 85-90% Hispanic/Latino. Many of the ones I've encountered deny that they have African ancestry but they're quick to "one-drop" others who do not speak Spanish.
Case in point: my ex had some friends from high school who are now married. Both are Hispanic, although I'm not sure if they're Cuban or what. The husband (we'll call him Ruben) is dark, with an olive complexion and thick black hair. His wife (we'll call her Julie) is lighter-skinned with a ruddy complexion and wavy blondish hair. My ex was one of the most militant black people I knew but took a perverse delight in spending time with these racist Latinos who threw the "N" word around constantly.
The wife in particular was not a nice person and seemed to think of herself as being completely free of African ancestry because she spoke Spanish and had fair hair. She was more hateful than any KKK member. When their daughter was born last year, she turned out looking very Asian with straight black hair and slanted eyes. I remember before she was born that my ex and another black American friend were teasing her by saying that the little one might turn out with dark skin because after all, her husband is dark.
She was visibly upset by this and countered it by saying: "He is Latin, NOT black. My grandmother would kill me if I had a black baby".
I wanted to shout: you NITWIT! Your husband has dark skin because he has African ancestry. It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed. I swear the racism and the sheer stupidity of my ex, his friends and family has made me more thankful to be a culturally enlightened individual.
Yes, there is racism among Latinos. Some have known African ancestry and don't want to accept it. However, not all dark skin in Latinos is attributed solely to African ancestry. It can be Native-American or Moorish from the Spaniards.
Last edited by Sadie on Sun 26 Oct 2008 15:49; edited 1 time in total
I read the first article, Latinos and their Escape Hatches written by a Latino. I feel that maybe he has some African ancestry which he is not proud of. Maybe there are some Latinos who deny their Black grandfather or great-grandmother but to say that Latinos are being delusional when they say they only have some African ancestry is to deny that many look phenotypically White. I have done my own geneological studies up to around the 1760's and in one branch to the 1500's and haven't found anyone listed as "pardo" yet. I know I do have African ancestry because of my DNAPrint test. I just haven't gone far back enough in time to find the actual individuals.
In my case, I would not be wrong in saying as the author of this article says that I have mainly Indo-European(as defined by DNAPrint to include Middle Easterners and South Asians) ancestry with some distant Native and African ancestry. And I'm not the only Latino who can say this.
Just to add on to Sadie's comments, this is not an issue that is strictly about denying African ancestry. Many Latinos look South Asian. or of clear Eastern Asian heritage. They don't identify that way, they identify with the country they were born and/or raised in. Yes, there is racial prejudice in Latin America, but in some ways the issue of race is so much less relevant than it is in the U.S., and that can carry over.
It's not fair to make the kind of judgment some have suggested in calling it an "escape hatch" without putting the different concepts of race into perspective.
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It is like how some people are oblivious to the fact that light skin often comes from having non-black ancestry. "Latin/Hispanic" is not even a race because most of these people are racially mixed. I swear the racism and the sheer stupidity of my ex, his friends and family has made me more thankful to be a culturally enlightened individual.
