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fwsweet
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 Posted: Sun 08 Jul 2007 02:22 Post subject: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed |
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'Racist' Lima restaurant closed
By Dan Collyns
BBC News, Lima
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6281346.stm
A popular restaurant in Lima has been temporarily closed down after several complaints that people with darker skin were refused entry.
The Café del Mar in Miraflores, a wealthy district of the Peruvian capital, is the first restaurant to be shut for alleged discrimination.
It will be closed for 60 days and was fined about $70,000 (£35,000).
Campaigners hope this is a first step in tackling Peru's deep divisions along racial and economic lines.
Officials from Peru's consumer protection agency and the municipality of Miraflores sealed the doors and placed signs on the entrances.
'Symbolic sanction'
For many human rights campaigners the closure is an important step in combating Peru's racial and economic discrimination.
Wilfredo Ardito is one of them: "This is a symbolic sanction. It is the first time happily that this practice in this terrible act of racial selection of the customer has been closed and we consider that this is the first step."
"Racism is something permanent in our society but it's terrible that even a place open to the public is practising this kind of situation," he said.
The Peruvian government only began imposing fines for discrimination in 2004 but a bill which passed through Congress some months ago reinforces existing legislation with jail sentences for those convicted of racial discrimination.
For centuries the white elite in Peru has held onto wealth and power despite the majority of the population being of indigenous or mixed descent.
But now there is more social mobility in Peruvian society and it seems the government of President Alan Garcia realises that Peru's social and economic inequality is hindering its development. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Sun 08 Jul 2007 03:17 Post subject: |
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| Legislation has been in place for a while. Doesn't mean it's going to stop rich racists from trying. Glad they are catching the culprits. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 01:08 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | Legislation has been in place for a while. Doesn't mean it's going to stop rich racists from trying. Glad they are catching the culprits. |
So colorism does appear to exist in Latin America separate and apart from classism and requires remedies independent of those that are designed to reduce exclusion based on class. It seems as if middle class people who happen to be dark skinned were discriminated against. That suggests that even middle class dark skinned people suffer colorism. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 02:02 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: |
So colorism does appear to exist in Latin America separate and apart from classism and requires remedies independent of those that are designed to reduce exclusion based on class. It seems as if middle class people who happen to be dark skinned were discriminated against. That suggests that even middle class dark skinned people suffer colorism. |
Actually, the article doesn't state what class the people were. What could easily have happened is the assumption that the people were lower class because of their looks. The true test would be to send someone with clothing and manner that are clearly middle to upper class.
The key words are:
"But now there is more social mobility in Peruvian society" |
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rhomtyr
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 05:37 Post subject: |
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| I'm peruvian, and I get that shit over here in miami too, i was at a restaurant picking up food, and this lady was like "filipino susio" (dirty filipino)....but I ain't filipino just really mixed with indian, black, spanish and chinese....kind of a weird story, but yeah, stupid restaurant |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 14:55 Post subject: |
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| rhomtyr wrote: | | I'm peruvian, and I get that shit over here in miami too, i was at a restaurant picking up food, and this lady was like "filipino susio" (dirty filipino)....but I ain't filipino just really mixed with indian, black, spanish and chinese....kind of a weird story, but yeah, stupid restaurant |
Bienvenido Perucho. My sister gets Filipina all the time.  |
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caribj
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 15:45 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | Actually, the article doesn't state what class the people were. What could easily have happened is the assumption that the people were lower class because of their looks. The true test would be to send someone with clothing and manner that are clearly middle to upper class.
The key words are:
"But now there is more social mobility in Peruvian society" |
Why would poor people try to patronize a restaurant in a rich area? They couldnt even afford to eat there and would also feel unconfortable.
The assumption that they are lower class from their looks must be because they dont look "white" so must be poor. In this case the owners were wrong and a protest occurred with the resulting fine. It appears as if in some parts of Latin American looking "poor' might equate with not looking "white".
Its also seems to be the case that upward mobility among Peruvians of color isnt too significant otherwise the owner would have realized the probability that not only would these potential customers have the $ to eat there, but may also have sufficient influence to protest with effect if refused service. Can you imagine something like that happening in NYC in 2007? |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 16:00 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: |
Why would poor people try to patronize a restaurant in a rich area? They couldnt even afford to eat there and would also feel unconfortable. |
Not true at all. With college and what not many people of lower incomes trying to improve their lot will frequent establishments that are frequented by the upper class.
| Quote: | | The assumption that they are lower class from their looks must be because they dont look "white" so must be poor. In this case the owners were wrong and a protest occurred with the resulting fine. It appears as if in some parts of Latin American looking "poor' might equate with not looking "white". |
Not really. There are plenty of middle eastern and asian people who do not look white but have no problems whatsoever. But because the majority of Black and Indigenous looking people are in the lower economic brackets because of prior exploitation, snobish places will instinctively react with unfounded assumptions. They would not do so if they realize the person is Afro-American, or of "good family." For example my friend Patulio looks very indigenous, hence his nickname, but his family is wealthy. And his demeanor shows it. He never has a problem getting in any club or establishment.
| Quote: | | Its also seems to be the case that upward mobility among Peruvians of color isnt too significant otherwise the owner would have realized the probability that not only would these potential customers have the $ to eat there, but may also have sufficient influence to protest with effect if refused service. Can you imagine something like that happening in NYC in 2007? |
That is why the article states that it just started. Assumptions and prejudices die hard. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul 2007 21:49 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | caribj wrote: |
Why would poor people try to patronize a restaurant in a rich area? They couldnt even afford to eat there and would also feel unconfortable. |
Not true at all. With college and what not many people of lower incomes trying to improve their lot will frequent establishments that are frequented by the upper class.
| Quote: | | The assumption that they are lower class from their looks must be because they dont look "white" so must be poor. In this case the owners were wrong and a protest occurred with the resulting fine. It appears as if in some parts of Latin American looking "poor' might equate with not looking "white". |
Not really. There are plenty of middle eastern and asian people who do not look white but have no problems whatsoever. But because the majority of Black and Indigenous looking people are in the lower economic brackets because of prior exploitation, snobish places will instinctively react with unfounded assumptions. They would not do so if they realize the person is Afro-American, or of "good family." For example my friend Patulio looks very indigenous, hence his nickname, but his family is wealthy. And his demeanor shows it. He never has a problem getting in any club or establishment.
| Quote: | | Its also seems to be the case that upward mobility among Peruvians of color isnt too significant otherwise the owner would have realized the probability that not only would these potential customers have the $ to eat there, but may also have sufficient influence to protest with effect if refused service. Can you imagine something like that happening in NYC in 2007? |
That is why the article states that it just started. Assumptions and prejudices die hard. |
Salsassin clearly there was a problem and if in NYC poor folks dont try to eat at wealthy restaurants because they cant afford it I very much doubt in Peru where the poorer are even poorer they would. This clearly appears to be a case of mistaken identity where some one who was thought to be poor because of their phenotype wasnt and used their connections to ensure that the restaurant was punished.
The point is that Peruvians of SSAfrican and maybe Indigenous ancestry are sometimes mistreated because they are thought to be socially undesirable. The closer they are to middle class as against wealth its probable that they are more likely to encounter this
In Latin America upward mobility doesnt seem to insulate some one from being subjected to discrimination by color. Clearly then we have a problem of classism AND COLORISM, that isnt eradicated by virture of upward mobility. This suggests that an attack on colorism is as essential as classism as was plainly the case here. The restaurant wasnt closed because it refused poor people. It was closed because it refused people of color. The remedy emphasized discrimination based on appearance which indicates possible ancestry. NOT discrimination based solely on class.
The point Salsassin is that a visiting black tourist in LatAm appears to more likely to be faced with the assumption that he must be poor because of his phenotype, unless he takes pains to stress his foreigness (like speaking English), than one visiting New York City. I can assure that this was my experience especially in Brazil and Venezuela, and yet in 25 years I have never had this problem in NYC.
BTW if some one went to college its likely that they are middle class and not poor. Do people go to restauranst where they cant afford the food? Surely a restaurant catering to the wealthy is way above the means of a poor person in Peru I would think? I know this is the case in NYC. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 01:17 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: |
Salsassin clearly there was a problem and if in NYC poor folks dont try to eat at wealthy restaurants because they cant afford it I very much doubt in Peru where the poorer are even poorer they would. This clearly appears to be a case of mistaken identity where some one who was thought to be poor because of their phenotype wasnt and used their connections to ensure that the restaurant was punished. |
clearly you are assuming, as you obviously haven't been there. I went to eat in many nice restaurants with poor friends. It is called saving up. Or rubbing shoulders, or what not.
| Quote: | | The point is that Peruvians of SSAfrican and maybe Indigenous ancestry are sometimes mistreated because they are thought to be socially undesirable. The closer they are to middle class as against wealth its probable that they are more likely to encounter this |
Actually, people of Indigenous ancestry get as much discrimination aspeople of Afrodescent in Peru. But once they are established with the mannerisms and other cues of the upper classes, people can tell.
http://expecon.gsu.edu/workingpapers/GSU_EXCEN_working_paper_2007_01.pdf
| Quote: | | In Latin America upward mobility doesnt seem to insulate some one from being subjected to discrimination by color. Clearly then we have a problem of classism AND COLORISM, that isnt eradicated by virture of upward mobility. This suggests that an attack on colorism is as essential as classism as was plainly the case here. The restaurant wasnt closed because it refused poor people. It was closed because it refused people of color. The remedy emphasized discrimination based on appearance which indicates possible ancestry. NOT discrimination based solely on class. |
Actually, colorism and phenotype discrimination. The people discriminated were indigenous looking and their complexion was probably about the same as that of many of the restauranteurs. But their features weren't.
| Quote: | | The point Salsassin is that a visiting black tourist in LatAm appears to more likely to be faced with the assumption that he must be poor because of his phenotype, unless he takes pains to stress his foreigness (like speaking English), than one visiting New York City. I can assure that this was my experience especially in Brazil and Venezuela, and yet in 25 years I have never had this problem in NYC. |
NYC has a lot more immigrants from all over the world such a wealth comes in every look. Not so with many Latin American places so the comparison is not valid.
| Quote: | | BTW if some one went to college its likely that they are middle class and not poor. |
Again, that shows you do not know the University system in South America. Poor people can and do go to college if they get the higher scores on the entrance tests.
| Quote: | | Do people go to restaurants where they cant afford the food? Surely a restaurant catering to the wealthy is way above the means of a poor person in Peru I would think? I know this is the case in NYC. |
This is not NYC. And yes, it is expensive. But again, while they definitely were not empoverished people, doesn't mean they were rich or even middle class. Not saying they weren't but don't assume.
$20 dollars is the minimum there.
By the way, the people who were discriminated in this opportunity were Indigenous/Mestizo.
Look at this video of one of the victims of racial discrimination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fcueuny7s
Now is there racial discrimination. hell yeah, but don't just assume based on this article that it was on color but phenotype.
People also discriminated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKpHOX-Q3u4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uraNvorVnPE
Now watch this video and you can talk about discrimination because of black ethnicity in peru.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_WE-1sWfmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhBm_FA9f2I
By the way, look at the features of thse that identify as Afrodescendientes. Not all look "Black". |
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caribj
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 18:35 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | caribj wrote: |
Salsassin clearly there was a problem and if in NYC poor folks dont try to eat at wealthy restaurants because they cant afford it I very much doubt in Peru where the poorer are even poorer they would. This clearly appears to be a case of mistaken identity where some one who was thought to be poor because of their phenotype wasnt and used their connections to ensure that the restaurant was punished. |
clearly you are assuming, as you obviously haven't been there. I went to eat in many nice restaurants with poor friends. It is called saving up. Or rubbing shoulders, or what not.
| Quote: | | The point is that Peruvians of SSAfrican and maybe Indigenous ancestry are sometimes mistreated because they are thought to be socially undesirable. The closer they are to middle class as against wealth its probable that they are more likely to encounter this |
Actually, people of Indigenous ancestry get as much discrimination aspeople of Afrodescent in Peru. But once they are established with the mannerisms and other cues of the upper classes, people can tell.
http://expecon.gsu.edu/workingpapers/GSU_EXCEN_working_paper_2007_01.pdf
| Quote: | | In Latin America upward mobility doesnt seem to insulate some one from being subjected to discrimination by color. Clearly then we have a problem of classism AND COLORISM, that isnt eradicated by virture of upward mobility. This suggests that an attack on colorism is as essential as classism as was plainly the case here. The restaurant wasnt closed because it refused poor people. It was closed because it refused people of color. The remedy emphasized discrimination based on appearance which indicates possible ancestry. NOT discrimination based solely on class. |
Actually, colorism and phenotype discrimination. The people discriminated were indigenous looking and their complexion was probably about the same as that of many of the restauranteurs. But their features weren't.
| Quote: | | The point Salsassin is that a visiting black tourist in LatAm appears to more likely to be faced with the assumption that he must be poor because of his phenotype, unless he takes pains to stress his foreigness (like speaking English), than one visiting New York City. I can assure that this was my experience especially in Brazil and Venezuela, and yet in 25 years I have never had this problem in NYC. |
NYC has a lot more immigrants from all over the world such a wealth comes in every look. Not so with many Latin American places so the comparison is not valid.
| Quote: | | BTW if some one went to college its likely that they are middle class and not poor. |
Again, that shows you do not know the University system in South America. Poor people can and do go to college if they get the higher scores on the entrance tests.
| Quote: | | Do people go to restaurants where they cant afford the food? Surely a restaurant catering to the wealthy is way above the means of a poor person in Peru I would think? I know this is the case in NYC. |
This is not NYC. And yes, it is expensive. But again, while they definitely were not empoverished people, doesn't mean they were rich or even middle class. Not saying they weren't but don't assume.
$20 dollars is the minimum there.
By the way, the people who were discriminated in this opportunity were Indigenous/Mestizo.
Look at this video of one of the victims of racial discrimination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fcueuny7s
Now is there racial discrimination. hell yeah, but don't just assume based on this article that it was on color but phenotype.
People also discriminated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKpHOX-Q3u4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uraNvorVnPE
Now watch this video and you can talk about discrimination because of black ethnicity in peru.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_WE-1sWfmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhBm_FA9f2I
By the way, look at the features of thse that identify as Afrodescendientes. Not all look "Black". |
The restaurant was NOT closed because it discriminated against the poor. It was closed because it discriminated against PEOPLE OF COLOR. It therefore makes sense to assume that a middle class Peruvian of color will be assumed to be poor based on how non European their features are. Such people, even after having broken through the barriers of class and having entered the middle class always will have to be mindful of the need to be aware of the prejudices of others. This restaurant issue amply illustrates this.
Now according to the Miami Herald the Brazilian census says that the income disparities between blacks/mixed and whites INCREASES with the degree of education. I.e. educated blacks do worse relative to educated whites than do their less educated counterparts. It seems obvious that colorism is a variable in addition to class that is responsible for the underperfomance of Afrodescendants in much of Latin America. In Cuba even more blatant examples of colorism were described where, even after indicating his qualifications for a job a black Cuban had to get his white brother in law to verify that he was qualified. I am not aware of any evidence which suggests that Peru has a more enlightened attitude to its Afrodescendants than does Cuba or Brazil, and in fact some would argue that its even worse there.
I will not quibble with what constitutes "black" as that definition varies based on the person and the culture from which they emerge. Suffice to say that most of those on that video manifest obvious signs of West/Central African ancestry which clearly becomes a barrier to their upward mobility in many parts of Latin America. The articles on the Miami Herald feature amply indicate this. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 18:44 Post subject: |
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[quote="Salsassin]NYC has a lot more immigrants from all over the world such a wealth comes in every look. Not so with many Latin American places so the comparison is not valid.
".[/quote]
Both Caracas and Rio are filled with many black visitors and locals there distinguish between black tourists and local "blacks". In both cities people "knew" I wasnt local because of my automatic assumption that I could operate within upper middle clas contexts in which few of the local "blacks" were visible. The only difference I can see between myself and the local "blacks" is that I wasnt raised within an environment where to be black=being poor. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 18:45 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: | | The restaurant was NOT closed because it discriminated against the poor. It was closed because it discriminated against PEOPLE OF COLOR. |
Sorry bub. It made it to TV in Peru. I could care less what you read. They did not look darker than many of the higher hierarchies. But they did look indigenous.
| Quote: | Now according to the Miami Herald the Brazilian census says that the income disparities between blacks/mixed and whites INCREASES with the degree of education. I.e. educated blacks do worse relative to educated whites than do their less educated counterparts. It seems obvious that colorism is a variable in addition to class that is responsible for the underperfomance of Afrodescendants in much of Latin America. In Cuba even more blatant examples of colorism were described where, even after indicating his qualifications for a job a black Cuban had to get his white brother in law to verify that he was qualified. I am not aware of any evidence which suggests that Peru has a more enlightened attitude to its Afrodescendants than does Cuba or Brazil, and in fact some would argue that its even worse there.
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Not speaking about Cuba. As for Brazil, there are a lot more Whites who already are in the upper castes, so education in poor Blacks isn't going to overcome a class/caste system. Social mobility will.
| Quote: | | I will not quibble with what constitutes "black" as that definition varies based on the person and the culture from which they emerge. Suffice to say that most of those on that video manifest obvious signs of West/Central African ancestry which clearly becomes a barrier to their upward mobility in many parts of Latin America. The articles on the Miami Herald feature amply indicate this. |
Or at least it correlates with their socio economic situation. But this particular article is not referencing people of African Ancestry, but indigenous. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 18:49 Post subject: |
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One of the presenters, Monica Carillo, was in NYC. She described daily insults that she, an obviously educated and attractive black Peruvian female faces on the streets. Please do not tell me that some one can look at this very elegant woman and not know that she is a middle professional. She was in open admiration of the strides that "blacks" in Brazil and parts of Central America were making to alleviate their situation and spoke of the extreme self hatred of many AfroPeruvians. She also openly appealed for blacks in the USA to pay more attention to the plight of their brothers and sisters in Latin America. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 19:01 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | Sorry bub. It made it to TV in Peru. I could care less what you read. They did not look darker than many of the higher hierarchies. But they did look indigenous. |
My interpretation of what you wrote suggests that they maybe as dark as other elite Peruvians but just more Indigenous, i.e. less European looking. So if they are more Indigenous looking in appearance than others who would not be denied service isnt this an example of some sort of racial discrimination? I repeat. The restaurant was closed because it discriminated based on RACE not CLASS. Were these patrons less Indigenous looking the whole issue mightnt have arisen. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 19:45 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: | | One of the presenters, Monica Carillo, was in NYC. She described daily insults that she, an obviously educated and attractive black Peruvian females faces on teh streets. She was in open admiration of the strides that "blacks" in Brazil were making to alleviate their situation and spoke of teh extreme self hatred of many AfroPeruvians. |
Fully aware of LUNDU's Monica Carillo.
I would have to ask her where she was that she was receiving the insults and by whom and on a daily basis. Or if they were cat calls from men whom are ride to women in general that also mentioned her ethnicity as well. When I talk to Mónica, I will go into it deeper. |
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 20:16 Post subject: |
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| caribj wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | Sorry bub. It made it to TV in Peru. I could care less what you read. They did not look darker than many of the higher hierarchies. But they did look indigenous. |
My interpretation of what you wrote suggests that they maybe as dark as other elite Peruvians but just more Indigenous, i.e. less European looking. So if they are more Indigenous looking in appearance than others who would not be denied service isnt this an example of some sort of racial discrimination? I repeat. The restaurant was closed because it discriminated based on RACE not CLASS. Were these patrons less Indigenous looking the whole issue mightnt have arisen. |
Again. if it were purely on race, I would question if all people of indigenous look were discriminated as well. Including the ones with money.
http://www.fdralumni.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=553&page=5
Those are senior pictures from my old school. Those are rich kids. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 21:23 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | ]
Fully aware of LUNDU's Monica Carillo.
I would have to ask her where she was that she was receiving the insults and by whom and on a daily basis. Or if they were cat calls from men whom are ride to women in general that also mentioned her ethnicity as well. When I talk to Mónica, I will go into it deeper. |
She specifically said the remarks that she gets are racist in nature. The forum dealt with issues that AfroLatinos face and that is the context within which such remarks were made.
Last edited by caribj on Wed 11 Jul 2007 21:26; edited 1 time in total |
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caribj
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 21:25 Post subject: |
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The restaurant was closed because of race. Clearly a case was made and the evidence was that this was the case. Given that the restaurant wasnt closed because of class we can assume that people who Indigenous or visible SSAfrican features have a tougher time being treated with respect. |
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caribj
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 21:28 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed |
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| fwsweet wrote: | 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed
By Dan Collyns
BBC News, Lima
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6281346.stm
A popular restaurant in Lima has been temporarily closed down after several complaints that people with darker skin were refused entry.
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Salsassin please review this. Note that it wasnt just one person and apparently similar complainst werent made by people with more caucasoid features. |
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