Just do not lose track that you are seeking evidence about, "...phenotype and in fact is more European looking than...." You are NOT seeking evidence of differences in class nor socio-economic status.
Salsassin wrote:
Socio-economic and class level is intertwined with it and you know it. The richer people were lighter. The exclusive clubs were White.
Perhaps so, but you claimed that Miami residents of Cuban descent have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Showing that people living under socialism are generally poorer than those living under democracy does not do this. The only issue at hand is phenotype. You must show evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent actually have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Nothing more. Nothing less.
DeWayne Wickam wrote:
[A USA Today editorial labeled "OPINION"]
This editorial, which claims that Mr. Wickam believes that Cuban residents are "black" and Miami-residents are "white" because the former are socialist good guys and the latter are capitalist bad guys offers not one shred of evidence for the claim. Indeed, the editorial is openly stated to be one man's unsubstantiated opinion. Jaime, you are losing track. The only issue at hand is phenotype. You must show evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent actually have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Nothing more. Nothing less.
McCarthy and Gonzalez wrote:
83.5% of the Cuban Americans identified as White in the 1990 census.
According to Edward Gonzalez and Kevin F. McCarthy, Cuba after Castro: Legacies, Challenges, and Impediments (Santa Monica, CA: RAND Corp. prepared for the National Defense Research Institute, 2004), 83.5% of the Cuban Americans identified as White in the 1990 census. It is likely than an equal or even higher number of Cuban residents would have "self-identified as White" if they lived under U.S. rule. So what? The only issue at hand is phenotype. You must show evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent actually have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Suchlicki wrote:
Because of a migration of more than a million mostly White Cubans, there is a greater proportion of blacks and mulattos in Cuba.
Jaime Suchlicki, Cuba: from Columbus to Castro (New York,: Scribner, 1974) makes an unsubstantiated assertion. The unsubstantiated opinion of a USAmerican as to which non-USAmericans are ideologically White and which are ideologically Black carries no weight. The only issue at hand is phenotype. Focus, Jaime. You must show evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent actually have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Nothing more. Nothing less.
James wrote:
83.5% of the Cuban Americans identified as White in the 1990 census.
Winston James, Holding aloft the banner of Ethiopia: Caribbean Radicalism in Early Twentieth-Century America (London: Verso, 1999) says nothing about today's Miami residents of Cuban descent. He does claim that Black Cubans made up 21% of of immigrants in the 1870's but at the turn of the century, less than 13%. To put this in context, "black" Puerto Ricans made up 50 percent of the population in 1890, before both islands were conquered by the U.S. In the very next census, under U.S. rule, less than 10 percent self-identified as "black." So what? This merely shows that nobody in his right mind who has been conquered by USAmericans would ever claim a "black" self-identity. The only issue at hand is phenotype. Focus, Jaime. You must show evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent actually have a "lighter phenotype and in fact are more European looking than" Cuban residents. Nothing more. Nothing less.
No, I don't think so. If they identified as White, it was for a reason. If you dobt their own words in the census, then it is up to YOU to prove that there was an alterior reason for them identifying as White. You are giving unsubstantiated alternate possibilities. Ockam's Razor. Unless you can show there was a nother reason why most that migrated to Miami identified as White, it is because they saw themselves as White according to Latin American standards. Latin American standards have some leeway, but visible mulatos still identify more as mulato and so do Negros.
Even the marielitos which weren't anywhere close to the size of the mass migration during Castro's takeover was 2 thirds White.
Cuban Miami By Robert M. Levine, Moisés Asís
Our Rightful Share: the Afro-Cuban struggle for equality, 1886-1912 By Aline Helg
Cubans in Puerto Rico: Ethnic Economy and Cultural Identity By Jose A. Cobas, Jorge Duany
Compare that to 57% Black claimed by the United States. Congress. House. Committee on Foreign Affairs - 1990
LA HABANA (CubaNet).— Dicen que en Cuba no hay racismo. El socialismo lo
eliminó de un plumazo: otro de los logros de la revolución.
Ese es un asunto que no se discute. Menos aún entre cubanos blancos. Un
escobazo ocultó bajo la cama el polvo que había en el piso. Desde la
Independencia, los cubanos nos hemos negado testarudamente a aceptar la
existencia del problema racial.
En la bola negra que alguien impuso a Fulgencio Batista para vetar su
ingreso al Miramar Yacht Club, más que su origen de clase y su
ilegitimidad como presidente de facto, pesó el color de su piel. La tez
rubicunda del falso Mesías que lo derrocó pareció una bendición del
cielo a la burguesía criolla.
Al triunfo de la revolución, exclusivas playas y hoteles segregados
fueron eliminados. Nicolás Guillén cantaba en su poema Tengo:
Tengo, vamos a ver
Que siendo un negro
Nadie me puede detener
A la puerta de un dancing o de un bar.
En los primeros años era inconcebible que un negro fuera desafecto al
régimen revolucionario. La revolución había “bajado a los negros de los
árboles y les había cortado la cola”. Así como lo oye. La frase se
repitió hasta la saciedad. No se sabe quién la acuñó. No fue el
Comandante en Jefe. No por anónima dejó de ser reiterada, como si para
los negros no existieran opciones que no pasaran por el marxismo leninismo.
¿Les digo la verdad? En Cuba, la discriminación racial no se acabó.
Pregunte a los negros si no lo cree.
El racismo siempre ha estado prendido a la vida cubana. Como una mala
hierba. Bien arraigado en los prejuicios. Acuñado en estereotipos
comunes del imaginario colectivo.
Los negros sólo sirven para la música y los deportes. Fuera de ahí,
búsquelos en juergas, borracheras y rumbantelas. Son vagos,
escandalosos, incompetentes y ladrones.
Además del deporte y la música, para algo tenían que servir. Hay toda
una mitología sexual en torno a ellos. Las negras son calientes. Los
negros son desmesurados atletas eróticos.
De la famosa película Fresa y chocolate transcribo un bocadillo que no
tiene desperdicio. Lo dice Diego, el protagonista gay, a David.
Escuchando a María Callas, toman té hindú en tazas de porcelana de
Sevres que una vez pertenecieron a la familia Loynaz del Castillo:
“¿Racista yo? ¡Niño! Yo sé muy bien lo que vale un negro. Pero no son
para tomar té. Es una lástima. Das un pestañazo y zas, desapareció el
negro y la porcelana de Sevres”.
Elementos de origen africano han devenido en símbolos de la
nacionalidad: la música, los bailes, expresiones del habla popular, los
cultos sincréticos.
Los jerarcas culturales descubrieron el filón. Para ellos, los negros
eran poco más que folclor y brujería. Ahora los convirtieron en carnada
para atraer turistas. Sus dólares salvarían al comunismo cubano. Para
ello, inventaron los diplobabalaos, los collares de santería sin ache y
las letras del año de utilería de la Asociación Cultural Yoruba.
Negros y mulatos conforman, según cifras oficiales, el 63 por ciento de
la población cubana. Los no blancos pueden ser muchos más. En el censo
nacional de población, a los cubanos les es posible escoger su raza. Los
que no tienen pronunciados rasgos negroides suelen declararse blancos.
El abigarrado mestizaje cubano crea una amplia categoría intermedia de
personas que no son blancas ni negras. “Pasan por blancos”. Su identidad
racial neutralizada promueve la discriminación a la vez que niega su
existencia.
En la Cuba para turistas, apartando los ojos del escenario y la pista de
baile, uno pudiera acabar preguntándose donde están los negros.
No los busque en los puestos vinculados al turismo o a las corporaciones
con capital extranjero. En ellos se exige “buena presencia”, al parecer,
casi según los patrones hollywoodenses de los años cuarenta.
Tampoco están en las altas esferas de poder. El 85 por ciento de los
miembros del Politburó son blancos. Entre los demás dirigentes del
Estado y el partido los negros y mulatos se pueden contar con los dedos.
Son las excepciones que confirman la regla.
En el cine y la televisión, raramente los negros son protagonistas.
Ellos tienen reservados los papeles de esclavos.
Sin embargo, son la mayoría de la población penal en las más de 200
prisiones diseminadas por el país.
Históricamente, ha sido un aberrante círculo vicioso. Los negros han
sido relegados. Les han negado oportunidades. Las estrategias de
supervivencia de los más desafortunados han sido interpretadas como
pruebas adicionales de su pretendida inferioridad. Se creó el axioma de
su supuesta propensión a delinquir.
Despiertan la suspicacia de las rondas policiales. Son las principales
víctimas de redadas y operativos de la PNR. “Es como si no hubiera
jineteras blancas. Como si los blancos no robaran ni fumaran marihuana”,
me dijo un desolado amigo rasta de Mantilla que ha optado por encerrarse
en su casa a oír reggae. Él sabe de registros en la vía pública, de
calabozos y de actas de peligrosidad.
En Cuba, no hable con los blancos (o los que lo parezcan) de
discriminación racial. Los hará sentir incómodos. Le dirán que el
racismo no es un problema aquí. No faltará quien le diga que hablar de
eso trae divisiones que sólo benefician al enemigo imperialista.
Si quiere saber, recorra las calles habaneras. Hágalo sin ideas
preconcebidas ni aires de solidaridad tercermundista. Siéntese en la
esquina, entre en los solares. Tal vez así descubra dónde están los negros.
Futuro de Canciller cubano despierta interrogantes
Por Pablo Alfonso
Bitácora Cubana, 17 de enero de 2007 - (Diario Las Américas)
El futuro político del Canciller cubano, Felipe Pérez Roque, está marcado por dos signos de interrogación.
La causa de esta interrogante tiene que ver, entre otras cosas, con las significativas ausencias de Pérez Roque de dos importantes eventos internacionales en los últimos días: Las investiduras presidenciales en Nicaragua y Ecuador, respectivamente.
Es habitual que los ministros de Relaciones Exteriores integren las delegaciones oficiales que asisten a este tipo de eventos y la ausencia de Pérez Roque parece que ha abierto la puerta de las interrogaciones.
Pérez Roque, no formó parte de la delegación cubana que viajó la pasada semana a Nicaragua para la toma de posesión del flamante presidente, Daniel Ortega. En su lugar, estuvo el Jefe de Relaciones Internacionales del Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC), Fernando Ramírez de Estenoz Barciela.
Vale la pena indicar que esa delegación estuvo presidida por el miembro del Buró Político, José Ramón Machado Ventura, señalado como uno de los principales representantes de la línea dura del comunismo castrista.
Por cierto que es la primera vez que Machado Ventura, representa oficialmente al Gobierno cubano en una actividad oficial de esa naturaleza. El burócrata más duro e intransigente del PCC.
Esta semana, Pérez Roque se quedó también fuera de la delegación oficial cubana enviada a Ecuador para la asunción presidencial de Rafael Correa.
En esta ocasión le tocó el turno a Carlos Lage, vicepresidente del Consejo de Estado, quien presidió la delegación del régimen. En representación del Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores, integró la delegación castrista, la viceministra de ese organismo, Yiliam Jiménez Expósito.
Jiménez, por cierto, tiene bajo su cargo en la cancillería cubana la atención a los miles de médicos y personal de salud que la dictadura cubana ha desplazado en varios países latinoamericanos.
Ecuador, precisamente, es uno de esos países, lo que podría explicar la presencia de la viceministro en lugar del Canciller Pérez.
A pesar de las especulaciones que comienzan a cobrar fuerza en torno a Pérez Roque, no hay indicios de que el Canciller esté confrontando problemas políticos.
Quizás todo lo que sucede es que a Pérez Roque, “le han ajustado su contenido de trabajo”. Dicho de manera más clara y directa: que su protagonismo de los últimos años, bajo la sombra directa del dictador Fidel Castro, está dentro de límites más discretos.
La otra explicación es que quizás también estamos asistiendo al llamado nuevo estilo de trabajo, del sucesor Raúl Castro, quien – según dicen- gusta de distribuir las funciones entre sus colaboradores.
Si eso es así, ello explicaría por qué ahora vemos a Machado Ventura en Nicaragua, a Lage en Ecuador y a Esteban Lazo, presidiendo –como hizo en noviembre pasado- la delegado de Cuba a la Asamblea General de Naciones Unidas en New York. Lazo también debutó entonces en esos menesteres diplomáticos, a pesar que pertenece a la elite del poder del PCC, como miembro del Buró Político. Es el único negro en ese aparato elitista, a pesar de que, según el más reciente Censo de Población, los negros y mulatos constituyen más del 50 por ciento de la población cubana.
Una explicación más sencilla: No pasa nada con el Canciller Pérez Roque. Simplemente el hombre está de vacaciones.
De cualquier forma, vale la pena tener en cuenta el tema… Recordemos que cuando fue nombrado como Canciller, la nota oficial publicada entonces en Granma, señaló como una de sus cualidades para el cargo que Pérez Roque era “un fiel intérprete del pensamiento del Comandante en Jefe”.
¿Será acaso que, a estas alturas, ya no hay nadie capaz de interpretar el pensamiento del Comandante en Jefe?
Look, Jaime, if you have no direct evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent are of more Euro phenotype than residents of Cuba today, just admit it and move on. What is the point of posting opinions about self-identity? The issue is not self-identity. It is phenotype. So far, you have posted no evidence of phenotype.
I understand that you are convinced that claims of "racism," claims of self-identity, claims of God knows what else make you conclude that Miami residents must logically be of more Euro phenotype. Fine. Believe this if you wish. But if you cannot provide any direct evidence of this simple fact, please move on.
Look, Jaime, if you have no direct evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent are of more Euro phenotype than residents of Cuba today, just admit it and move on. What is the point of posting opinions about self-identity? The issue is not self-identity. It is phenotype. So far, you have posted no evidence of phenotype.
I understand that you are convinced that claims of "racism," claims of self-identity, claims of God knows what else make you conclude that Miami residents must logically be of more Euro phenotype. Fine. Believe this if you wish. But if you cannot provide any direct evidence of this simple fact, please move on.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Statistics of self identity are based on phenotypes. What range may vary, but still phenotype plays a role. We aren't talking one drop rule here. No White looking people claiming Blackness, nor predominantly African or Mulatto looking people claiming Whiteness.
Look, Jaime, if you have no direct evidence that Miami residents of Cuban descent are of more Euro phenotype than residents of Cuba today, just admit it and move on.
Salsassin wrote:
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
No. That is precisely the problem. Lack of evidence either way. To my knowledge, no one has attempted to objectively measure "racialized" appearance in well over half a century. Let me explain why.
Using the probabilities of genetic distribution, it is easy to show that, after three generations, a 50-50 Afro-Euro population will comprise about one person in eight who looks unambiguously European (Nordic, even) to virtually any inhabitant of the New World. And about one person in eight will look unambiguously west African (Bantu, even) to virtually any inhabitant of the New World. But the great bulk of any 50-50 admixed population (like PR, Santo Domingo, Cuba, or Brazil) has an appearance that lies somewhere in-between. And whether such an individual is seen as "black," "white," or "mulatto" depends entirely upon the observer. New Englanders see such in-between people differently than do Louisianans. Puerto Ricans, Cubans, and Dominicans would classify them differently yet, and Haitians see things even more differently.
There are three problems with claiming that any multigenerational Afro-Euro admixed population looks more African (or European) than another. The first problem is that such a claim is not talking about the small minority (one person in four) who would be seen as either "black" or "white" by Wisconsinites, South Carolinians, and Brazilians. It is talking about the vast bulk (three individuals out of four) who fall somewhere in-between. Therein lies problem one; most of such a population looks in-between.
Problem two is that not only do people from different regions draw the demarcation lines differently, but three-year-olds draw them differently than ten-year-olds, who see people differently from adults. Italian-Americans draw different lines than do German-Americans. Rich folks see things differently than poor folks and, especially members of the U.S. Black endogamous group draw dramatically, radically different lines than do members of the U.S. White endogamous group. Again, we are not talking about the one person in eight who all would agree looks "white" nor the one person in eight who all would agree looks "black." We are talking about the great majority of any admixed population.
Problem three is that the only way objectively to measure the statistics of "racialized" appearance for the population of problem one while simultaneously avoiding the subjectivity lurking in problem two, is to establish a set of objective criteria. Specifically, one must devise a measure of African-ness or European-ness that is unquestionably objective. This requires a formula based upon some weighted-factor combination of skin tone, hair curliness, nose width, subcutaneous fat distribution, body hair density, eye color, craniofacial traits, etc. Many 20-century anthropologists attempted this. Led by Melville J. Herskovits, The Anthropometry of the American Negro (New York: Columbia University, 1930) and culminating in the great work by Caroline Bond Day and Earnest Albert Hooton, A Study of Some Negro-White Families in the United States (Cambridge MA: Harvard University, 1932), the efforts came to naught. They showed without doubt that "racialized" appearance is a moving target. Not only does "racialized" perception of mixed populations vary by the ethnicity, age, socio-economic class, and the like of the observer. But, and this is what killed the efforts, the same individual observers often classify the same individual subjects differently at different times.
Ever since the mid-20th-century abandonment of the anthropological search for objectively measurable criteria of who is black, white, or mulatto, ideologues have fallen back on self-identity as a surrogate. The problem is that it is easy to show that well over half of the population of Puerto Rico switched from self-identifying as "negro" or "mulatto" in 1890 to self-identifying as "white" in 1900. It is easy to show that individual citizens of Brazil change their color labels from one census to the next as their socio-economic fortunes rise and fall. It is easy to show the same "money whitens" phenomenon throughout Latin America. It is easy to show the same "fear of Jim Crow whitens" phenomenon everywhere that USAmericans have set foot. Self-identity is important to political voting blocs. But it clearly, demonstrably, unambiguously, does not to measure objective looks, since objective looks cannot change in the same individual, from one year to the next, and back again, as self-identity often does for admixed populations.
Do I have any evidence showing how many Miami residents of Cuban descent look "negro," "mulatto," or "white" as compared to residents of Cuba? Absolutely not. If someone were to actually perform an objective study measuring the "racialized appearance" of the great bulk of such an admixed population, we would all have evidence one way or another. But do not hold your breath. It was tried by many serious scientists and the whole notion was abandoned over half a century ago.
For more on this, see "The Perception of Racial Traits" in Legal History of the Color Line.
OK, say that we have a biased opinion of what looks Black and what looks White. Wouldn't that same person judging two different populations show that bias in both populations? Such that it would still be logical to conclude a difference? I have yet to read one claim by any person that has claimed that Cuban Miami is of the same composition as Cuba. No matter how much they 'Whiten' or 'Blacken' the supposed identities, Cuba always is the 'Blacker' of the two when compared. Why would that be so consistent?
I do not know. It might be because people who live in Cuba really do look more "African" than Cuban descendents in Miami. It might be because, after half a century, Cuban descendents in Miami have mixed with Anglos. It might be because Cuba is poorer than Miami and, as we all know, money whitens perception. It might be because apologists for the communist regime now in Cuba use the same rhetoric that communist apologists and fellow travelers have always used: "communism is good because Americans are racists." I could hypothesize on and on. The problem is lack of data. We need an objective study of "racial" traits. Until we get some data, anyone who opines is just speechifying.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 274 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 03:16 Post subject:
I have read in various Anglo authored works on Miami, that black looking Cubans were discouraged from settling there in the days that it was still a segregated southern town.
The black and mulatto looking Cubans, according to these authors, instead went to the northern New Jersey/NYC area. These Cuban communities are said to have the same socio economic profile as Puerto Ricans in the region.
The Cuban elite in Miami may be whiter due to a founder effect. They got in on the ground floor at a time when anybody who looked black was pretty much excluded. Or it may owe to the fact that Cubans who already had education, business experience, and capital were the most successful on arrival in Miami. These would typically be the whiter Cubans, I'm assuming.
I have read in various Anglo authored works on Miami, that black looking Cubans were discouraged from settling there in the days that it was still a segregated southern town.
There were Cuban communities that included blacks and mulattos in Tampa Florida going back to the early part of the last century. I believe their community settled in a place called Ybor City. Some of their descendants still live in Tampa.
At least initially, early Cuban migrations after Castro's rise were made up of middle and upper class people, so there probably weren't many blacks and mulattos in the mix. Also, New York and New Jersey had small Cuban populations in existence prior to Castro's takeover.
odocoileus wrote:
The black and mulatto looking Cubans, according to these authors, instead went to the northern New Jersey/NYC area. These Cuban communities are said to have the same socio economic profile as Puerto Ricans in the region.
I've heard that too. Being from New York, at least to me, most Cubans I've come across there have been non-white. West New York, Union City and Weehawken, New Jersey are all predominantly Cuban cities in Northern New Jersey. You'd probably find a higher percentage of blacks and mulattos in those towns. Indeed, two Cubans I know who are friends of my sister's claim there is less racism in the Cuban communities in New Jersey and New York than there is in South Florida. They attribute this to the smaller numbers of elite, white Cubans in those areas.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 06 Mar 2007 02:46 Post subject: Strange behavoir
I have a theory about that.
I have observed that several groups of Latinos, once in North America tend to identify with different groups. If they are black they go with Black Americans, if they are white with white Americans, if they are native looking they defend the "label" Latino, etc.
In a report about a recent migration wave of Cubans to the U.S., it was quite clear the migrants were of all colors, but once they landed in the U.S. they took different directions. It is very likely that "white" Cubans is what people of the U.S. know as Cubans, and that "Black" Cubans are simply forgotten as asimmilated to the largest group of Black Americans.
heyyy I live in hialeah, fl....any of y'all ever heard of it? it's the cuban capital of the country
anyway, the majority of cubans here are really spanish looking, then more mixed ones that will claim to be white but u can tell they are mixed, some are just flat out jabado, but afro-cubans? super rare
hell, my neighbor is chinese cuban...and there's even middle eastern cubans...but no black cubans
heyyy I live in hialeah, fl....any of y'all ever heard of it? it's the cuban capital of the country
anyway, the majority of cubans here are really spanish looking, then more mixed ones that will claim to be white but u can tell they are mixed, some are just flat out jabado, but afro-cubans? super rare
hell, my neighbor is chinese cuban...and there's even middle eastern cubans...but no black cubans
heyyy I live in hialeah, fl....any of y'all ever heard of it? it's the cuban capital of the country
anyway, the majority of cubans here are really spanish looking, then more mixed ones that will claim to be white but u can tell they are mixed, some are just flat out jabado, but afro-cubans? super rare
hell, my neighbor is chinese cuban...and there's even middle eastern cubans...but no black cubans
they don't like them here
any of y'all disagree?
I wouldn't. Half of my family lives in South Florida. My Haitian father (well half Haitian, half Cuban but to remind him of that is usually a mistake) is virulently anti Cuban-American that he named Hileah as one of the areas that I should "never, ever" frequent. I'd bring home a Dominican before a Cuban, and that is saying something in a Haitian family.
heyyy I live in hialeah, fl....any of y'all ever heard of it? it's the cuban capital of the country
anyway, the majority of cubans here are really spanish looking, then more mixed ones that will claim to be white but u can tell they are mixed, some are just flat out jabado, but afro-cubans? super rare
hell, my neighbor is chinese cuban...and there's even middle eastern cubans...but no black cubans
they don't like them here
any of y'all disagree?
I wouldn't. Half of my family lives in South Florida. My Haitian father (well half Haitian, half Cuban but to remind him of that is usually a mistake) is virulently anti Cuban-American that he named Hileah as one of the areas that I should "never, ever" frequent. I'd bring home a Dominican before a Cuban, and that is saying something in a Haitian family.
Can't either...I have some relatives in South Florida that are seriously anti Cuban. Part of it is due to what they call Cuban (and by extension Latino) clannishness and extreme ethnocentrism, as far as they see it. The rest is due to the perception that Cubans (or the very light ones at least) are unabashedly racist. In any event, many of them have told me that I should visit but never live down there. A few are even trying to find other places to live.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 {Posts: 110 } Location: chicago
Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 20:50 Post subject:
most of the cubans that flee from the revolution were mostly caucasion. most of the black and mulatto cubans decided to stay. Castro and his government are mostly caucasion and mulatto ? that should tell you something ? also, before Castro most caucasions were middle and upper class compared to the blacks and mulatto's .
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