|
|
| Author |
Message |
G-Man
Moderator
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }
|
 Posted: Tue 28 Aug 2007 19:37 Post subject: |
 |
|
| Sankofa wrote: | | Quote: | | I have a problem with the blanket statement that a member of a group shouldn't discuss a topic that may pertain more to in-group issues. It ignores the intent behind having a discussion, which, to me, is much more important to consider than how someone looks. |
I hear you, but isn't that the same argument that Frank uses when defending "Latin" America/Spanish Speaking Caribbean culture in terms of how people identify and the assumption made by many Americans in that "Latinos" deny their "Blackness"/African ancestry? If I remember correctly, he vehemently states that one cannot/must not use US racialism to judge "Latin" America/Spanish Speaking Caribbean people's self identification in denying or minimizing their "Black"/African ancestry, right? Same rule applies here, IMO. |
Clarification: Claiming that one must not use U.S. conceptions of race to understand or discuss colorism in Latin America isn't the same thing as declaring discussion of colorism in Latin America by non-Latinos off limits. Indeed, it is incorrectly assumed by many people from the U.S. that the rejection of a black idenity is the same thing as denial of African ancestry both here and in Latin America, and U.S. conceptions of race are universal...This is the problem when people from the U.S discuss issues of race or color in Latin America. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sankofa
Mentor
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
{Posts: 228 }
Location: CT/U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Aug 2007 20:39 Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Clarification: Claiming that one must not use U.S. conceptions of race to understand or discuss colorism in Latin America isn't the same thing as declaring discussion of colorism in Latin America by non-Latinos off limits. Indeed, it is incorrectly assumed by many people from the U.S. that the rejection of a black idenity is the same thing as denial of African ancestry both here and in Latin America, and U.S. conceptions of race are universal...This is the problem when people from the U.S discuss issues of race or color in Latin America. |
I completely understand. That's basically what I'm trying to convey in my explanation of the "is he Black enough?" discussions that are taking place in the Media and in certain facets of "mainstream" America, where I believe the question is being taken out of context for obvious reasons.
Most people in "mainstream" America will not grasp the reasoning behind that kind of question simply because they don't have to deal with that kind of scrutiny and/or politics in their daily lives. It doesn't affect or impact them in the same way it does or can for "Blacks". For them ("mainstream" Americans), America is just one America and their "race" is never questioned. For most "Blacks" in America, that is not the case. Most "Blacks" have to live in two different Americas - one at home where you can be yourself and one at work where you have to be pretentious. Any "Black" person who works in corporate America or any professional occupation can attest to what I'm saying here.
Non-"Black" people are projecting what they think of the "is he Black enough?" discussion amongst the old guard of the Civil Rights leadership by using their own cultural logic (which is only natural because people usually only see through their own cultural lenses to make decisions in life, IMO) to process this information, which isn't their fault because one can only see what they've been taught to see.
The "is he Black enough?" discussion should not have been made public and should have been kept within the context of those who think that it is important or see it as a rites of passage (the old Civil Rights leadership that won't pass the reigns onto the younger generation) within the "Black" American political machine(?). You don't air your "dirty laundry" for the world to see right off the bat. You should work it out internally and if all else fails, then look for outside intervention. That's what I think, at least. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G-Man
Moderator
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Aug 2007 21:32 Post subject: |
|
|
| Sankofa wrote: |
Non-"Black" people are projecting what they think of the "is he Black enough?" discussion amongst the old guard of the Civil Rights leadership by using their own cultural logic (which is only natural because people usually only see through their own cultural lenses to make decisions in life, IMO) to process this information, which isn't their fault because one can only see what they've been taught to see. |
I'd be curious why you think this is happening. The "is Obama black enough" issue and the nature of what being black enough is have been raised by black intellectuals and leaders themselves in the media. Non-blacks are aware of the nature of this "controversy" by acquainting themselves with the opinions of those black people who express concerns about Obama’s blackness. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5380 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Aug 2007 21:43 Post subject: |
|
|
| Sankofa wrote: | | isn't that the same argument that Frank uses when defending "Latin" America/Spanish Speaking Caribbean culture ... |
I do not defend Latin American culture nor any other culture. Personally, I think that all identity politics is silly. I simply will not allow this discussion group to become a platform for arrogant USAmericans to criticise the identity politics of foreigners for not following USAmerican identity politics. As it says in The Rules: "The site’s mission is to inform and to become informed about U.S. racialism, nothing more." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
High School Teacher
Mentor
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
{Posts: 255 }
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed 29 Aug 2007 02:22 Post subject: |
|
|
| MP (mulattoprince) wrote: | @ High School Teacher
Yes a person's economic and social cultural can determine how they are perceived this is one of the reasons why Obama is viewed as white (culturally) even though he has visible black ancestry. Also, Obama does not come across as a pro black nationalist and this makes many whites comfortable with him. His not growing up in a black community and growing up in a white community is one of the reasons he is doing well in his candidacy. Many Whites feel comfortable with him. |
I'd venture a guess that many people who view Obama as culturally white (what that means exactly I'm not sure) have a stereotypically unflattering view of what it means to be black, culturally. Another version of the "acting white" fallacy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MP mulattoprince
Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
{Posts: 464 }
|
| Posted: Wed 29 Aug 2007 09:17 Post subject: |
|
|
@ High School teacher,
High school teacher said: I'd venture a guess that many people who view Obama as culturally white (what that means exactly I'm not sure) have a stereotypically unflattering view of what it means to be black, culturally. Another version of the "acting white" fallacy.
Mulattoprince said: You do have a point there, I agree. The sad thing is blacks have do a lot of good too, but the negative seems to get the most attention. Could it be that many humans of all ethnic groups myself included deep down on the inside are more negative than we would like to believe about ourselves? This could be one of the reasons we focus on the negative so much, and remember it more than the good, because deep down in our subconscious mind we are more negative and possibly more evil than we humans (myself included) would like to believe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G-Man
Moderator
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }
|
| Posted: Wed 29 Aug 2007 17:53 Post subject: |
|
|
| High School Teacher wrote: | | MP (mulattoprince) wrote: | @ High School Teacher
Yes a person's economic and social cultural can determine how they are perceived this is one of the reasons why Obama is viewed as white (culturally) even though he has visible black ancestry. Also, Obama does not come across as a pro black nationalist and this makes many whites comfortable with him. His not growing up in a black community and growing up in a white community is one of the reasons he is doing well in his candidacy. Many Whites feel comfortable with him. |
I'd venture a guess that many people who view Obama as culturally white (what that means exactly I'm not sure) have a stereotypically unflattering view of what it means to be black, culturally. Another version of the "acting white" fallacy. |
And I'd include a few black people in that group.
As someone who has attended predominantly white primary and secondary schools. I'm always amused when I hear people claim (positively or negatively) that someone like Obama "acts white". Most of the white kids I went to school with sounding anything but articulate and behaved and acted like characters from "The Sopranos". They were certainly white, but would have been seen as alien to many white people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chasbyrd
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 389 }
Location: NYC
|
| Posted: Thu 06 Sep 2007 14:15 Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting cartoon by Michael Ramirez:
From IBDeditorials.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chasbyrd
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 389 }
Location: NYC
|
| Posted: Thu 06 Sep 2007 14:33 Post subject: |
|
|
A letter to the editor of DAWN, "Pakistan's most widely circulated English language newspaper" refers to Obama as a "half-caste presidential hopeful":
| Quote: | West’s criticism
THE Newsweek magazine has, in its August 20 issue, quoted a CIA official as saying that although President Musharraf may be keen to net Ayman al Zawahiri and the famous Osama bin Laden, our own ISI has “no desire to either take on its Frankenstein or to see its Frankenstein removed.”
Does Newsweek realise that no one in his senses knowingly kills the goose that lays the golden eggs? If all the threats of terrorist attack were to magically disappear, would we still be getting billions of dollars in military aid from the US?
That said, Pakistan is itself fighting terrorism of the most virulent kind on its own soil. Every day our armed forces and police personnel (and innocent members of the public) are killed in terrorist bomb attacks of one kind or the other.
But this must be differentiated from the legitimate desire of our Pushtoon tribesmen to grant ‘malmastai’, which is an age-old traditional ‘shelter’ to their fellow tribesmen even if they happen to be of the Taliban, be it in Waziristan or elsewhere in the tribal belt. Nothing is gained by spewing bile and scorn at Pakistan’s own efforts to combat terrorism.
President Gen Musharraf is being constantly badgered by the Americans to ‘do more’, while their half-caste presidential hopeful, Obama, tries to make headlines by threatening Pakistan with ‘direct’ action of the kind mentioned by Newsweek.
All this is pointless bombast for the simple reason that the status quo must and will remain until after the general elections next year, when hopefully a ‘democratic’ government will be better able to blunt the criticism currently flowing from the West.
S. ASIF MAJEED
Karachi |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mulan
Experienced User
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
{Posts: 102 }
|
| Posted: Fri 28 Sep 2007 21:22 Post subject: |
|
|
it's interesting how they won't give the man credit for being what he says he is. It wasn't too long ago when one of the major black leaders had red hair and gray eyes - was about 1/4 white.
And it's interesting because the same people that accuse Obama of not being what he says he is tries to put every mixed afro-descendant or dark and brown skinned group in the Black category. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
