The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean?          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Caribbean Basin Author Message Salsassin Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 } Posted: Sat 09 Jun 2007 18:12    Post subject: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality Back to top Beauty Experienced User Joined: 02 Jun 2007 {Posts: 100 } Posted: Sun 10 Jun 2007 10:42    Post subject: What do you mean? Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2613 } Posted: Sun 10 Jun 2007 14:37    Post subject: Re: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? Salsassin wrote: Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality Probably hypodescent mentality or some people accept blackness as a kind of political identity. Also, it may not be broadly adhered to. Similar looking persons may not consider themselves black. A more African-looking person may not see himself as black (racially) either. For example, my sister's friend's husband is from Trinidad (the wife is African American) he looks-according to my sister-black, but he doesn't consider himself or his children black (he is apparently half Indo-Trinidadian); he sees himself and his children as mixed. To most people, his self-classification seems odd because to them he is so obviously black in appearance. BTW, very few people I know from the English Caribbean think in terms of ethnic blackness. Many see black as a racial concept, at least that has been my experience. However there is no universal agreement on the criteria for blackness based on my personal experience. Back to top Fledgist Moderator Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta Posted: Sun 10 Jun 2007 17:13    Post subject: Re: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? Salsassin wrote: Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality In Trinidad, 'black' and 'African' are increasingly being used as ethnic identifiers -- in preference to 'Creole', which would include whites -- because Trinidadian politics is increasingly about ethnicity. The current government, interestingly, faced with Hindu and Muslim objection to the highest national honour being called the Trinity Cross (because this is seen as as much ethnic as religious), asked a white immigrant to take charge of resolving the problem. Back to top Otorongo Experienced User Joined: 28 May 2007 {Posts: 107 } Posted: Mon 11 Jun 2007 12:58    Post subject: Yeah, there it seems African and Indian are the dichotomy. Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sun 01 Jul 2007 01:27    Post subject: Re: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? G-Man wrote: Salsassin wrote: Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality Probably hypodescent mentality or some people accept blackness as a kind of political identity. Also, it may not be broadly adhered to. Similar looking persons may not consider themselves black. A more African-looking person may not see himself as black (racially) either. For example, my sister's friend's husband is from Trinidad (the wife is African American) he looks-according to my sister-black, but he doesn't consider himself or his children black (he is apparently half Indo-Trinidadian); he sees himself and his children as mixed. To most people, his self-classification seems odd because to them he is so obviously black in appearance. BTW, very few people I know from the English Caribbean think in terms of ethnic blackness. Many see black as a racial concept, at least that has been my experience. However there is no universal agreement on the criteria for blackness based on my personal experience. Most people will consider Lawrence Duprey to be mixed although he apparently considers himself to be black. What we have is a "racial" definition based on what one looks like, and a "social" definition, which is which group one identifies oneself to be regardless of how one looks. So racially Duprey is mixed because he looks mixed, whereas socially he considers himself to be black, operating within the conext of Trinidads black community. Note these are my definitions based upon my experiences operating within a variety of West Indian communities. Some might use "ethnic" why I use "social". I use "social" because often there is fluidity in definitions and one might see themselves as mixed, African or even Indian, depending on the context. IMHO ethnic implies a fixed definition whereas "social" suggests a fluid definition depending on social context. In describing identities one must differentiate between Guyana, Trinidad and maybe Belize which are multi ethnic societies and the rest of the English speaking Caribbean, which while possessing a variety of ethnic groups, are predominantly African. In the former countries the ethnic, or what I called above "social" becomes very important given the significant cleavages that exist between Africans and Indians in the former two, and maybe between blacks and mestizos in Belize. To be black therefore isnt merely a description of one's race or appearance but it can take on a "tribal" importance in societies dominated (at least politically) by two "tribes". In places where 95% of the population is black race becomes almost unimportant and class and social/political connections are way more significant. I was in one of the smaller Eastern Caribbean islands (one where 40 years ago there were extreme tensions between blacks and browns (mulattos) and was told by a mulatto women that "these days everybody is black". She didnt mean "black" in an ethnic sense. What she was getting at was that race and color was without meaning in that country, at least in her opinion, and that those who obsessed on it had a chip on their shoulder given that it was no longer of social significance or a predictor of ones socio-economic status. So that given that the majority is black, and that there was no real difference between this group and the much smaller "brown" category, which these days is highly socially integrated into the "black" category in her opinion, its as if "every body is black" and discussions of race/color are a waste of time. I did see a prominent brown gentleman who I personally know 25 years ago would NEVER marry a darkskinned woman (sleep with one surely but NOT marry) happily married to one. So one cannot describe in general what attitudes to identity might be. I see at least 4 categories in the English Caribbean. Guyana and Trinidad which are multi-racial and where no race is in the majority. The Eastern Caribbean islands where race/color seems to have declined in significance with a majority black ruling elite. Barbados with its black vs white clash (with the browns in between but with little power) and Jamaica with its infamous black vs browning wars, even though black vs brown is no longer a predictor of social status. I also suspect that the declining importance of the old white elites in most of these countries (middle class whites have by and large left these countries creating space for teh upward mobility of other groups) , combined with the growing importance of new black (and in Guyana and Trinidad Indian) elites has resulted in changing attitudes to race and color and the notion that the black vs brown dichotomy is no longer signficant except in Jamaica, and even there less so than it used to be. Back to top punjabtrini Mentor Joined: 04 Sep 2007 {Posts: 253 } Location: USA Posted: Wed 05 Sep 2007 17:19    Post subject: Re: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? G-Man wrote: Salsassin wrote: Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality Probably hypodescent mentality or some people accept blackness as a kind of political identity. Also, it may not be broadly adhered to. Similar looking persons may not consider themselves black. To most people, his self-classification seems odd because to them he is so obviously black in appearance. One has to realize that it depends on the social milieu and the cultural sphere of the country! We must distingusih and define black, African, and so on to know why a=a! The English and Americam versions of race are different and very opposite. Both Africans and Asians (Indians) are considerd black in the UK. In America, they make the distinction and give Asian Indians a honourable status and define them as 'quasi-white'. Whatever that means but it is present in the society at large. With that definition, black does not equal African but it may imply it. Even Hispanics in the US who are called white, they are either mulato, mestizo, or some other mixed category in their homeland. Take a look at Telemundo or Univision! The stars of the telenovelas do not cut people's lawns in the US, it is the indigena, mulato, mestizo or some short dark skinned person. Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2613 } Posted: Wed 05 Sep 2007 17:44    Post subject: Re: One Droppism in the English Speaking Carribbean? punjabtrini wrote: G-Man wrote: Salsassin wrote: Or are we just speaking of ethnic blackness as a concept. I ma just surprised at some of the people considered Black in places like Trinidad. So I wonder if it is just being raised in the Black community, or if it is hypodescent mentality Probably hypodescent mentality or some people accept blackness as a kind of political identity. Also, it may not be broadly adhered to. Similar looking persons may not consider themselves black. To most people, his self-classification seems odd because to them he is so obviously black in appearance. One has to realize that it depends on the social milieu and the cultural sphere of the country! We must distingusih and define black, African, and so on to know why a=a! The English and Americam versions of race are different and very opposite. Both Africans and Asians (Indians) are considerd black in the UK. Officially? In general? Some of the information I've come across from Great Britain distinguishes between the two. Perhaps they were both black in the past but not now? punjabtrini wrote: In America, they make the distinction and give Asian Indians a honourable status and define them as 'quasi-white'. Whatever that means but it is present in the society at large. With that definition, black does not equal African but it may imply it. Which "they" are you talking about and is this quasi-white status official? Articles and such in U.S. publications Asian Indians in the U.S. describe them as South Asian or Indian as opposed to white. punjabtrini wrote: Even Hispanics in the US who are called white, they are either mulato, mestizo, or some other mixed category in their homeland. Take a look at Telemundo or Univision! The stars of the telenovelas do not cut people's lawns in the US, it is the indigena, mulato, mestizo or some short dark skinned person. I suppose that depends on where you live. Where I live most Hispanics aren't called white and many European-looking ones have difficulty convincing people they are either Hispanic or white. Also, what is depicted on Spanish-language television as the ideal Latin look doesn't have much impact on how most people in the U.S. view Hispanics. Most Americans don't watch Spanish-language television. In the minds of most Americans, Hispanic means Mexican and Mexican means someone Amerindian or mestizo. Back to top Beauty Experienced User Joined: 02 Jun 2007 {Posts: 100 } Posted: Wed 05 Sep 2007 22:01    Post subject: I live in the UK and as I far as I am aware there is a distinction between those who are South Asian and those who are black. Back to top Powell Guru Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2143 } Posted: Wed 05 Sep 2007 23:18    Post subject: Hypodescent in the UK Beauty wrote: I live in the UK and as I far as I am aware there is a distinction between those who are South Asian and those who are black. Beauty, wasn't there a brief period when the fashion in the UK was to call every "nonwhite" black? Back to top Beauty Experienced User Joined: 02 Jun 2007 {Posts: 100 } Posted: Thu 06 Sep 2007 09:07    Post subject: Yes there was a time period when non-white's were called black. I think they started making proper distinctions in the 80's. However I think people were always were aware there were differences between Blacks, South Asians and Mixed Race people. South Asians used to be referred to as Indians, Mixed Race people were referred to as Half-cast. East Asians are still referred to as Chinese although not all come from China. I think in the past Black was signifier of politics to do with racism opposed to a true racial term. Back to top punjabtrini Mentor Joined: 04 Sep 2007 {Posts: 253 } Location: USA Posted: Thu 06 Sep 2007 16:06    Post subject: Sometimes words, their perceived meaning and their meaning in reality are different things and never the twain shall meet! In the UK, black refers to all non-whites and still does periodically but with the Muslim 'problem' there is a trend to distinguish between groups as opposed to the generic black tag. Ethnically there are those who are phenotypically Asian Indian and others phenotypically African. There is also the social usage and reference where in UK Indian may be 'coloured'!!! but in the US their social status become enhanced (whatever that means but check out Dinesh D'Souza) and in some circles they imagine themselves as 'white' pertaing to class reality and lack of the same prohibitions that people of African descent have experienced in US. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Caribbean Basin All times are GMT Page 1 of 1 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group