There has been a lot in the news lately about Swiss Xenophobia and racism due to the largest party, a nationalist party, making provocative statements about immigrant populations. Unlike a lot of opinages, I have actually been to Switzerland (St. Gallen and Zurich primarily) and I am non-white so I feel I have more of a take on racism in Switzerland. My take on this has seemed to shock a lot of people, but here it is and this is not an apology for racism:
I honestly don’t care if Swiss people are racist or not, that is not the point really. Actually I read into the issue and racism is not the primary issue, as much of the crime is coming from Bosniak and Albanian refugees…who are just white Muslims. Then the next biggest group is Turks (many of who are also “white” but some are obviously not).
They tend to be men, and they tend to be born in Switzerland (but often not citizens just resident aliens as it is hard to get Swiss citizenship if you don’t marry a Swiss person).
If I was Swiss, I would not joint a right wing party, but if we were bringing people into our nation as workers, refugees, whatever and they are committing a ridiculous amount of crime (including rape) I would seek to stop their immigration and also deport non citizens as well, sorry.
What ever Swiss knows is 20 years ago they hardly had much crime as compared to America, or even France or the UK. Swiss people are fairly peaceful (despite having guns in every home with an adult male contrary to what liberals here will tell you that guns make people murder people).
“The party claims that foreigners — who make up about 20% of the population — are four times more likely to commit crimes than Swiss nationals.”
If this is true, and from what I read it is…then wouldn’t you want to take action? Switzerland is NOT a land of immigrants. Swiss people have lived there since Roman times at least and our a mix of local Celts tribes (Helveti) and later Germanic tribes that came into the area as well as Franks in the east). In fact they still call their nations the Helveti Confederation. They fought many many wars to maintain their independence from France, the Holy Roman Empire, and various Italian city-states, and also the Romans back in the day.
This is their home.
Racist or not, every nation has the right to determine who enters their home and who they allow to be citizens. If they only wanted blonds or people over 6 foot that is their business.
I very much admire the Swiss for their grass roots democracy, they are very libertarian in a way, every canton, hell every town has a certain autonomy and they vote by referendum on many many issues. Hell they have no head of state, they have a cabinet, which is th e executive, but not President or PM…it is an amazing country, and if I was Swiss I would fight to preserve that.
When I was there I had no issues, but I did hear negative talk of Muslims, especially Turks…and that was in Zurich…people were more clannish there and stand offish (as in Germany) the French speaking regions are more provincial than the people in France but very “chill”…I can’t remember anyone being rude to me, in fact in Geneva people were very friendly. In Zurich I would not say “friendly” but definitely polite and civilized. I even saw skinheads at the train stations from time to time and none of them made any provocative moves or even said anything to me, nor were they trying to convert people. They pretty much were hanging out minding their own business.
Here is a question
If Kenya’s Indian minority or Nigeria’s Lebanese minority were committing close to 50% of all violent crimes in those nations and the “nationalist party” in either of those countries had something with black sheep and they were kicking out the “white or yellow” one.
And the political party said they wanted these violent minorities out of a moratorium on immigration from their nations because they want to keep Kenya (or Nigeria) safe and culturally homogeneous for the indigenous people would any of you be calling these Kenyan and Nigerian politicians racist?
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 14:34 Post subject: Re: Swiss Racism and Xenophobia?
Dragon Horse wrote:
If Kenya’s Indian minority or Nigeria’s Lebanese minority were committing close to 50% of all violent crimes in those nations and the “nationalist party” in either of those countries had something with black sheep and they were kicking out the “white or yellow” one. And the political party said they wanted these violent minorities out of a moratorium on immigration from their nations because they want to keep Kenya (or Nigeria) safe and culturally homogeneous for the indigenous people would any of you be calling these Kenyan and Nigerian politicians racist?
Actually, Uganda did become obsessed with pure "blackness" at one point. They forcibly expropriated the homes and property of all non-Black Ugandans and exiled them from the country. The sub-plot of the Black River Productions film "Mississippi Masala" dealt with such a disposessed/exiled family who had immigrated to the United States. Of course, the crime rate among the non-Black Ugandans was virtually nil. Uganda stripped them of their savings and exiled them simply because they were not Black.
The only reason it got my attention was because they also had a problem with people of mixed heritage. They launched a plan to round up all Ugandans of mixed ancestry and relocate them to camps on an island in Lake Victoria. I kept track of it to see what the international reaction would be. Government-run "race"-based genocides tend to focus on purebred "others." Uganda was interesting because, for the past century, genocides specifically targeting mixed people have been rare.
I wonder [if mixed race-purges are] common in other areas like Cape Verde or Angola where I know there is a fairly large mixed race community?
I suggest that is unknown in the Cape Verdes. Mary Lee and I bump into Len Cabral at gigs now and then. Our long informative chats give us a chance to practice our Portuguese. He is a world-famous Cape Verdean storyteller. According to him and his friends, Cape Verdeans consider themselves Portuguese, not politically Black, no matter what they look like.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 16:47 Post subject:
Frank wrote:
According to him and his friends, Cape Verdeans consider themselves Portuguese, not politically Black, no matter what they look like.
That is my understanding as well. I fact, I recall reading that Cape Verdeans entering the U.S. prior to that republic's independence were simply listed as Portuguese. I digress here (I won't start a new thread, because I doubt this will be discussed further), but I propose that this is what caused the misconception in the U.S. about European (and Azorean and Madeiran) Portuguese having what was formerly termed "Negroid" physical characteristics.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 274 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 16:48 Post subject:
A lot of it seems like situational ethics. If a person's home country is dysfunctional and everyone with talent or ambition wants to escape from it, then that person argues for open borders. Most educated Nigerians, for example, really don't want to live in Nigeria. So anyone who opposes Nigerian immigration is called "racist".
If Nigeria were well run and prosperous, these same folks would be insisting on shutting out foreigners. In fact, there's a great deal of hostility in Nigeria towards immigrants from Ghana and other African countries
.
Mexico, as most of us are aware, cracks down brutally on illegal immigrants from Central America, while at the same time it's leaders call Americans who want to restrict immigration from Mexico, "xenophobic".
Never been to Switzerland myself, but everything I've read about them concurs with your report. The average Swiss dislikes anybody who isn't from his canton, and anybody who doesn't speak his specific dialect of Switzerdeutsch. They aren't altogether fond of white Americans either, though they'll tolerate them provided the Yanks spend plenty of money and behave themselves (not always a given when well off white folks go to foreign countries)
As to the US being a nation of immigrants, it is and it isn't. My African and European ancestors came to the US in the colonial period, a over two hundred years ago. My Native ancestors have been here for thousands. I'm not claiming that this somehow makes me better than anyone else. We do have a history here, though, and this should be taken into account in any discussion of these issues.
I wonder [if mixed race-purges are] common in other areas like Cape Verde or Angola where I know there is a fairly large mixed race community?
I suggest that is unknown in the Cape Verdes. Mary Lee and I bump into Len Cabral at gigs now and then. Our long informative chats give us a chance to practice our Portuguese. He is a world-famous Cape Verdean storyteller. According to him and his friends, Cape Verdeans consider themselves Portuguese, not politically Black, no matter what they look like.
I know nothing first-hand about Angolans.
Depends where. It seems in Argentina many see themselves as Black.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 17:14 Post subject:
odocoileus wrote:
Never been to Switzerland myself, but everything I've read about them concurs with your report. The average Swiss dislikes anybody who isn't from his canton, and anybody who doesn't speak his specific dialect of Switzerdeutsch.
That pretty much sums it up for the German-speaking Swiss (over 80% of the population), according to what I've experienced. The French-speakers and Italian-speakers are a bit friendlier. I've been throughout Switzerland a few times, and I speak German. Schwyzerdütsch, incidentally, is almost untelligible to a speaker of German who doesn't know this dialect. Interestingly, the Romansch-speaking Swiss (who also speak standard German and Schwyzerdütsch) are very reserved until you try to speak a bit of the local Rhaeto-Romance dialect (there are several). Then they become very warm and friendly, at least in my experience.
Depends where. It seems in Argentina many [Cape Verdeans] see themselves as Black.
That is true in the 'States too, according to Len, especially among the younger generation. The process of acculturation among the descendants of immigrants aparently entails their adopting their host country's attitudes towards "racial" distinctions. Very different from the attitudes back in the source country.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 17:43 Post subject:
William wrote:
odocoileus wrote:
Never been to Switzerland myself, but everything I've read about them concurs with your report. The average Swiss dislikes anybody who isn't from his canton, and anybody who doesn't speak his specific dialect of Switzerdeutsch.
That pretty much sums it up for the German-speaking Swiss (over 80% of the population), according to what I've experienced. The French-speakers and Italian-speakers are a bit friendlier. I've been throughout Switzerland a few times, and I speak German. Schwyzerdütsch, incidentally, is almost untelligible to a speaker of German who doesn't know this dialect. Interestingly, the Romansch-speaking Swiss (who also speak standard German and Schwyzerdütsch) are very reserved until you try to speak a bit of the local Rhaeto-Romance dialect (there are several). Then they become very warm and friendly, at least in my experience.
yeah I was in Zurich and St. Gallen and my experience was people were polite but not very "friendly" in fact...hell I think Japanese peopel were more friendly when I lived there.
Japanese are different. They are friendly as long as you are visiting, more in next door, that is different.
Still...the French speaking Swiss were just more cosmopolitan. I went to Germany, for a day trip on my next to last day in Switzerland, and they were not any different from the Swiss...actually I would say more reserved.
Still I did not encounter any over racism at all and I was with two white women most of the time (also Swiss German speakers).
Swiss German speakers also talk bad about other Swiss from other Cantons and also Germans and Austrians. So I'm not shocked they would be somewhat xenophobic, but still if they were outright racist they would not have allowed these people to come in the first place.
The crime rate is what is pissing people off, if they were curious and cautious before now their initial impressions have just been confirmed, unfortunately.
I was born and raised in Germany and spent a fair amount of time in Switzerland and Austria. Xenophobic attitudes toward Turks, Eastern Europeans or any other immigrants that are perceived to exploit liberal asylum laws and drain social services meant for citizens certainly exist. I saw these attitudes get worse during my time there (13+ years) and see no reason to conclude that they would improve with the advent of Muslim fundamentalism within the EU. As others have mentioned, a similar xenophobia occurs in other countries with high immigration, or the immigration of unskilled/culturally different/financially needy populations. I don't think the Swiss are exceptional in that regard.
In my experience folks are able to distinguish between Americans and Africans. Africans were treated badly and spoken about badly, for the same reasons as the other immigrants, but the only time I was ever treated badly by a random German was for being American. The Swiss I encountered when spending 3 weeks in the Alps were kind and hospitable people, but this was the Tirol area and not some remote and homogeneous canton. Ethnic German, French and Italian Swiss live in Tirol so it's more diverse.
Bill - Germans love to make fun of Schweizerdeutsch! I have to say for good reason because it sounds like Swedish to a German speaker.
Schweizerdeutsch sounds much better than high German...it is softer and has a lot of French mixed in. Don't laugh to much...
I was wondering if in Germany you saw Skinheads hanging out around the train stations? I saw this a lot in Switzerland but they never bothered me.
LOL all I hear is "herrrdegurrrr" but you're right about Hochdeutsch. No one really speaks that either in real conversation except maybe up north. I lived in Baden-Wuerttemburg, in the heart of Swabia. The Schwaebisch accent is also good for a few jokes (if anyone saw German TV back in the day, the title cartoon characters in "Aeffele und Pferdele" spoke Schwaebisch.
Funny you should mention Skinheads at the train station because now that I think about it, I usually saw them in train stations. Most were punk kids and wouldn't do anything to you. Some wouldn't even say anything untoward. The scariest one I ever saw, however, was in Hamburg. That dude looked at me like he wanted me to disintegrate right before his eyes. The other encounter I remember probably had more to do with who I was with at the time. Some Skinheards maced me and my guy friends at a skating rink (they used to fight over German girls).
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 19:04 Post subject:
I recall seeing Skinheads in train stations in Germany, now that y'all mention it. I didn't pay much attention to them, to be honest.
To me, the south German and Austrian dialects are the least harsh and the most pleasant. I grew up speaking a version of Swabian, so Maya and I would probably have no difficulty in understanding eachother's dialects. I find myself much more comfortable with folks who speak these dialects than, say, that spoken in Berlin, which is harsh and guttural. Hochdeutsch, the official language of Germany, Austria, and one of the official languages of Switzerland, isn't all that pleasant, either. Schweizerdeutsch is like a foreign language to me. It is so different in vocabulary and especially pronunciation. Look at the way those who speak it write (and say) Schweizerdeutsch: Schwyzerdütsch (pronounced SCHVEETZ-er-deetch instead of SCHVYTZ-er-doitch)! I have an easier time understanding Dutch, to be quite Frank. Dragon Horse is right about many French words having been absorbed. Elsaessisch, the Allemanic German dialect spoken in Alsace and parts of Lorraine, is probably closest, and has also absorbed French words.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 19:14 Post subject:
William wrote:
Dragon Horse is right about many French words having been absorbed. Elsaessisch, the Allemanic German dialect spoken in Alsace and parts of Lorraine, is probably closest, and has also absorbed French words.
Yeah they see stuff like " sie" for "yes" (which is she in German) and Denka (for thank you) and also Merci very often in Zurich, but my friends dialect in St Gallen is mutually comprehensible but everyone knew she was from St. Gallen by accent and it is less than 30 minutes by train.
I'm guessing there has been some serious inbreeding in those hills
My friends mother is from the Italian region and her father is from St. Gallen so when speaking at home with her sister she mixes the Italian dialect in Tirol with St. Gallen dialect of Swiss German...talk about bizarre sounding.
It is a big barrier for immigrants, because there is no place to learn the dialect.
In Switzerland they learn high German in school. They also only write high German as well as use it for official business (or government) so the only way to learn it is to pick it up from friends...which would be pretty hard I think, so you will always be an outsider...until you get it.
All foreigners I met were speaking High German which makes the Swiss people get all uncomfortable and stiff.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 10 Sep 2007 19:41 Post subject:
I've even heard "Vielen Merci" -- a combination of German and French!
My dad lived in the Austrian Tyrol, and there were words spoken there that he had never heard before. He recalled the spoken words (I'm spelling them the way I think they would be spelled if they were written) Gitchele for girl (instead of Maedchen) and Gatele for gate (instead of Tor). Some folks were bilingual in Italian and German. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some absorption of Italian into the German of this region.
Schwyzerdütsch is a spoken language (or more correcly, series of dialects) only. You are correct, only Hochdeutsch is taught in school (along with the other two official languages, French and Italian, which in their vernacular forms have their own differences from standard French and Italian, although the standard forms are taught in school). Romansch is one of the four national languages, but not one of the three official languages, to my knowledge.
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