Monica,
I can dig where you're coming from, since kids get teased about being too fat, too skinny, wearing glasses, being hairy, having freckles, etc., etc., etc. But, certainly some incidents must have to do with race, right? I mean, I have never had white girls call me salt and pepper and oreo, see what I'm saying?
Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 23:25 Post subject: Yes Definately
OTHER wrote:
Monica,
I can dig where you're coming from, since kids get teased about being too fat, too skinny, wearing glasses, being hairy, having freckles, etc., etc., etc. But, certainly some incidents must have to do with race, right? I mean, I have never had white girls call me salt and pepper and oreo, see what I'm saying?
Of course sometimes it has to do with race. Leah used to specifically target puerto-rican and mulatto girls (and boys) to harrass and fight...I can be honest about a phase Leah went through...Her best fr at the time Jas (the trouble maker)was jet black BUT I never got the impression that Jas thought herself less than anyone. Leah and her freinds were loud and laughed alot..Leah mainly would just catch people off guard.
One time I witnessed..I went to Leah's school to talk with her teacher abt her grades, the teacher took us up a back stairwell and at the top of the stair were a group of puerto rican boys were leaning on the door. Leah said excuse me "ONCE" next thing I know she shoved the door hard causing the crowd to fall into each other than she shoved her way through the crowd mubbling how puerto-ricans were so "f'in rude". No lie the hair on the back of my neck stood up cause I was sure a riot was about to start but no one challenged Leah.
During her short stint in boarding school, Leah hated these bi-racial twin sisters, because in Leah's words...they kept talking about it...Leah listens to people and then waits for a "slight" and attacks...I think one of the girls might have took a dryer she was planing on using or moved her clothes off an iron...Leah was the type who would then grab the offenders clothes, toss um out the window and then punch you in the face....Leah's agression had little to do with "race" the way we as adults digest it
Leah was agressive because Leah was agressive not because those girls were bi-racial...now at nearly 17 Leah is very different.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 11:14 Post subject: Look inside oneself
I wonder how many of us could be objective about what it is in their personality that may have lead to some of these incidents.
Two thoughts I had...as a kid I had moderate social skills, I was a kid that was 60% of the time confined to the porch, so I never learned to jump double dutch...I was tall but not athletic...what I was good at as a kid was weaving a tale...and getting smart with people...and I would occasionally lie...
how many of you might have been, snotty or introverted or followed a particular crowd, so you paid for the crimes of the group...rude or insensitive...everyone claims they weren't doing anything prior to being messed with....I would say 60% of the time thats not true. Then how many were just lacking in social skills to bail oneself out of situatuins.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 11:17 Post subject: Re: Yes Definately
Monica wrote:
OTHER wrote:
Monica,
I can dig where you're coming from, since kids get teased about being too fat, too skinny, wearing glasses, being hairy, having freckles, etc., etc., etc. But, certainly some incidents must have to do with race, right? I mean, I have never had white girls call me salt and pepper and oreo, see what I'm saying?
Of course sometimes it has to do with race. Leah used to specifically target puerto-rican and mulatto girls (and boys) to harrass and fight...I can be honest about a phase Leah went through...Her best fr at the time Jas (the trouble maker)was jet black BUT I never got the impression that Jas thought herself less than anyone. Leah and her freinds were loud and laughed alot..Leah mainly would just catch people off guard.
One time I witnessed..I went to Leah's school to talk with her teacher abt her grades, the teacher took us up a back stairwell and at the top of the stair were a group of puerto rican boys were leaning on the door. Leah said excuse me "ONCE" next thing I know she shoved the door hard causing the crowd to fall into each other than she shoved her way through the crowd mubbling how puerto-ricans were so "f'in rude". No lie the hair on the back of my neck stood up cause I was sure a riot was about to start but no one challenged Leah.
During her short stint in boarding school, Leah hated these bi-racial twin sisters, because in Leah's words...they kept talking about it...Leah listens to people and then waits for a "slight" and attacks...I think one of the girls might have took a dryer she was planing on using or moved her clothes off an iron...Leah was the type who would then grab the offenders clothes, toss um out the window and then punch you in the face....Leah's agression had little to do with "race" the way we as adults digest it
Leah was agressive because Leah was agressive not because those girls were bi-racial...now at nearly 17 Leah is very different.
Monica, it sounds like you're making excuses for the kind of racial hatred that makes life miserable for mixed-race kids who have the misfortune to be in an environment where blacks have power. If a "white" or "mixed race" kid decided to push blacks around (with the latter being a small minority), would you excuse it the way you excuse Leah? I doubt it.
During her short stint in boarding school, Leah hated these bi-racial twin sisters, because in Leah's words...they kept talking about it...Leah listens to people and then waits for a "slight" and attacks...I think one of the girls might have took a dryer she was planing on using or moved her clothes off an iron...Leah was the type who would then grab the offenders clothes, toss um out the window and then punch you in the face....Leah's agression had little to do with "race" the way we as adults digest it
Leah was agressive because Leah was agressive not because those girls were bi-racial...now at nearly 17 Leah is very different.
To each their own I suppose. Talking about being biracial was meaningful to these girls and they're allowed to talk about it regardless of who approves or disapproves. Leah is entitled to "not like" them talking about it "all the time" if it irritated her. It sounds like these twins and Leah were not one another's cup of tea and should simply have not kept company with one another while Leah was briefly at the boarding school. It's too bad that there seemed to be hard feelings for Leah over this. It's also a shame that she was so nasty to these girls.
It's nice to hear that Leah has matured and grown out of the ways that you have described. In the adult world, physically attacking people for perceived slights, especially when it's not self defensive will eventually land you before a judge being charged with assault, or in jail or worse.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 12:43 Post subject: Re: Look inside oneself
Monica wrote:
I wonder how many of us could be objective about what it is in their personality that may have lead to some of these incidents.
Two thoughts I had...as a kid I had moderate social skills, I was a kid that was 60% of the time confined to the porch, so I never learned to jump double dutch...I was tall but not athletic...what I was good at as a kid was weaving a tale...and getting smart with people...and I would occasionally lie...
how many of you might have been, snotty or introverted or followed a particular crowd, so you paid for the crimes of the group...rude or insensitive...everyone claims they weren't doing anything prior to being messed with....I would say 60% of the time thats not true. Then how many were just lacking in social skills to bail oneself out of situatuins.
I just can't imagine what I had done in first grade to cause the black girls in the class to chant oreo or salt and pepper at me.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 12:48 Post subject: Right to be oneself
mixedmom wrote:
Monica wrote:
During her short stint in boarding school, Leah hated these bi-racial twin sisters, because in Leah's words...they kept talking about it...Leah listens to people and then waits for a "slight" and attacks...I think one of the girls might have took a dryer she was planing on using or moved her clothes off an iron...Leah was the type who would then grab the offenders clothes, toss um out the window and then punch you in the face....Leah's agression had little to do with "race" the way we as adults digest it
Leah was agressive because Leah was agressive not because those girls were bi-racial...now at nearly 17 Leah is very different.
To each their own I suppose. Talking about being biracial was meaningful to these girls and they're allowed to talk about it regardless of who approves or disapproves. Leah is entitled to "not like" them talking about it "all the time" if it irritated her. It sounds like these twins and Leah were not one another's cup of tea and should simply have not kept company with one another while Leah was briefly at the boarding school. It's too bad that there seemed to be hard feelings for Leah over this. It's also a shame that she was so nasty to these girls.
It's nice to hear that Leah has matured and grown out of the ways that you have described. In the adult world, physically attacking people for perceived slights, especially when it's not self defensive will eventually land you before a judge being charged with assault, or in jail or worse.
An important part of the ODR is the idea that anyone who is part "black" has no "right" to talk about (much less be proud of) any nonblack ancestry. Just talking about it is frequently deemed unforgivable arrogance by many black-identifed folks. There was an episode of the Lifetime TV series, "Any Day Now" in which the main black character, Renee, expressed constant racial resentment against her mulatto assistant's references to her "Creole grandmother." In another scene from that episode, Renee expresses her resentment against another local mulatto woman's caucasian hair.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 13:07 Post subject: Answers
Powell said...Monica, it sounds like you're making excuses for the kind of racial hatred that makes life miserable for mixed-race kids who have the misfortune to be in an environment where blacks have power. If a "white" or "mixed race" kid decided to push blacks around (with the latter being a small minority), would you excuse it the way you excuse Leah? I doubt it.
No excuses for Leah, she has suffered many punishments for her bahavior...she shoved those puerto rican boys because instintively she knew they weren't going to chase her down and kick her butt...and I think had she done it to a group of black boys, it would have pretty much mimic-ed her interactions with her 5 brothers and she would have instintively tried to out run them.
The ironic thing is Leah is that visually "mixed girl", was she acting out of racial hatred...nahhh I don't think so...did she do it because the hispanic boys would react in a culturally different way...yes I think so
Leah's arch nemesis in boarding school was a big fat black girl who would purposely take a dump every morning when Leah was taking a shower....and Leah would always call me, one minute saying the girl twisted her arm behind her back and the next minute call me up laughing about something the girl did...but I always got the impression she was able to "play" with this girl more.
I'm just not ready to assign all this deep seated racial hatred to the actions of kids.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 13:17 Post subject: Answers
Other said...I just can't imagine what I had done in first grade to cause the black girls in the class to chant oreo or salt and pepper at me.
Okay...lets think this through rationally...whats an oreo...a black cookie with white cream on the INSIDE....you don't look like a black cookie so could it be...instead of deep racial hatred...they were just name calling based on something they thought they heard or understood...like kids calling each other "doo-key"
Could it have been that you cried instead of "snapping back"...I got the shock of my life as a young mom..one day I was squeezing my sons lips together (he had the fattest lil lips) mindlessly I was saying he had hot dog lips...he was still small enuf for me to hold in my arms and i'll never forget he looked at me with a devilish grin and told me I looked like a dalmation dog ( cause I have a face full of freckles)...I was so taken back (and hurt, LOL)...I never talked about my son's lips again.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 13:34 Post subject: Cultural insensitivity goes both ways
Powell said....An important part of the ODR is the idea that anyone who is part "black" has no "right" to talk about (much less be proud of) any nonblack ancestry. Just talking about it is frequently deemed unforgivable arrogance by many black-identifed folks. There was an episode of the Lifetime TV series, "Any Day Now" in which the main black character, Renee, expressed constant racial resentment against her mulatto assistant's references to her "Creole grandmother." In another scene from that episode, Renee expresses her resentment against another local mulatto woman's caucasian hair.
Cultural insensitivity goes both ways...I don't have long conversations with men about my period...I don't talk with older women about how good the sex is with my husband...I don't talk to much about things I've purchased or the money I personally spend on my kids with young struggling moms barely able to pay their rent...I don't go on and on about my cat to people with no interest in cats.
I've had to look in my soul and admit I take offense to people always qualifying statements abt kids with "ohhh she had lovely silky hair, blah, blah, blah"...if I don't see a balance of statements about "my other lil nephew is so cute with his chocolate self, fat cheeks and fuzzy hair"...then I feel culturally disrespected.
If someone is always starting a sentence..."my creole grandmother used to do or say this...".then yes I might enjoy the stories and answer back "your grandma was a trip, or some funny lady"...
But if everyday at work when ever your getting a compliment on your hair or tan...your saying "oh yeah it's because of my creole grandmother who was of french white phenotype and I have very little genetic SSA"...heyyyy heyyyyy TMI...too much information, LOL
I'm just not ready to assign all this deep seated racial hatred to the actions of kids.
Those with deep seated racial hatred learn this hatred when they're children in most cases.
My son is on a local PeeWee football team. My husband takes him to the practices and games. Recently, my son was admonished to "stop acting black" by one of his (black) teammates. His teammate further criticized him for having a "white" family telling him something to the effect of, "go back to your white family WHITE BOY!!" My son, (shamefully) shoved the boy to the ground and told the boy that his mother is half black and his father is white so he's part black and is allowed to act however he likes. I spoke with my son about this incident because I don't want him to think that it's okay to shove people over verbal confrontations. He could have and should have told the boy to leave him alone without the shoving. I wouldn't classify this as deep seated racial hatred but racial animosity is certainly present in my son's teammate. Who knows what it'll blossom into later on.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 15:14 Post subject: Deep seated hatred in kids
I definately have witnessed incidents like this but I just think kids don't have a basis for it to really be a deep seated racial hatred...like if your 10 years old...how many racial incidents could you really have had...he didn't lose a job to a white man or get cheated on by a white wife...you get what I'm saying...
usually if a wise adult gets involves and helps the children resolve their issues, usually with kids it has little to actually do with race...what do you think your kid was doing that made the other kid accuse him of "acting Black"?
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 15:23 Post subject: Re: Cultural insensitivity goes both ways
Monica wrote:
Powell said....An important part of the ODR is the idea that anyone who is part "black" has no "right" to talk about (much less be proud of) any nonblack ancestry. Just talking about it is frequently deemed unforgivable arrogance by many black-identifed folks. There was an episode of the Lifetime TV series, "Any Day Now" in which the main black character, Renee, expressed constant racial resentment against her mulatto assistant's references to her "Creole grandmother." In another scene from that episode, Renee expresses her resentment against another local mulatto woman's caucasian hair.
Cultural insensitivity goes both ways...I don't have long conversations with men about my period...I don't talk with older women about how good the sex is with my husband...I don't talk to much about things I've purchased or the money I personally spend on my kids with young struggling moms barely able to pay their rent...I don't go on and on about my cat to people with no interest in cats.
I've had to look in my soul and admit I take offense to people always qualifying statements abt kids with "ohhh she had lovely silky hair, blah, blah, blah"...if I don't see a balance of statements about "my other lil nephew is so cute with his chocolate self, fat cheeks and fuzzy hair"...then I feel culturally disrespected.
If someone is always starting a sentence..."my creole grandmother used to do or say this...".then yes I might enjoy the stories and answer back "your grandma was a trip, or some funny lady"...
But if everyday at work when ever your getting a compliment on your hair or tan...your saying "oh yeah it's because of my creole grandmother who was of french white phenotype and I have very little genetic SSA"...heyyyy heyyyyy TMI...too much information, LOL
I agree wholeheartly with you about cultural insensitivity going both ways!!!! In fact, it seems more spherical rather than simply bidirectional.
I've noticed this within my own family. My mother is a Mulatto and she has silky raven black hair. Her sister's hair is a little thicker. Her sister, my aunt, has a granddaughter who has course hair (but still pretty hair). I was over visiting with my aunt one day and her granddaughter was also there. My aunt was combing my little cousin's (her granddaughter) hair and was commenting negatively that she didn't know why her granddaughter got "this kind of hair" because her daughter-in-law had "nice" hair. I felt compelled to speak up immediately and tell my aunt in front of my cousin that I thought that my little cousin's hair was GORGEOUS, healthy, thick, and simply beautiful and that there were many styles that her hair could be put into. My aunt backed off. There are many stories that can be told of insensitivity from any group towards other groups.
What I'm getting from your post above is that it offends you personally when a mixed person addresses their ancestry in ways that separate them from racial blackness but it's okay if they're merely telling a funny non-race related story about a non-black ancestor. Is my understanding correct?
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 15:25 Post subject: Re: Deep seated hatred in kids
Monica wrote:
I definately have witnessed incidents like this but I just think kids don't have a basis for it to really be a deep seated racial hatred...like if your 10 years old...how many racial incidents could you really have had...he didn't lose a job to a white man or get cheated on by a white wife...you get what I'm saying...
usually if a wise adult gets involves and helps the children resolve their issues, usually with kids it has little to actually do with race...what do you think your kid was doing that made the other kid accuse him of "acting Black"?
My son was trying (apparently, unsuccessfully ) to do a dance called the "Souljah Boy" that all the rage. Admittedly, my 11 year old son doesn't have many "racial" incidents (that I know about) and this was one of those rare times.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 19:44 Post subject: Got it
Mixed mom said....What I'm getting from your post above is that it offends you personally when a mixed person addresses their ancestry in ways that separate them from racial blackness but it's okay if they're merely telling a funny non-race related story about a non-black ancestor. Is my understanding correct?
Yes...it kinda relates to the story about what happened at pee wee football...your son was trying to do the souljah boy (which yes I admit...I've polished my moves which I can do seamlessly, LOL,Souljah boy, superman and a sanitized version of the super soaker)
I can only imagine how the conversation went between team mates but even IF the team-mate told him to "stop acting black"...it was a challenge to his souljah boy move, not a request for his geneology information...wouldn't the appropriate answer have been..."alright then show me how it's done"....
At 43 year old I've asked at least a dozen folks (kids and teens and old folks I want to harrass) to do "their" souljah boy move...cause everyone interpets the moves differently...
so how was the issue resolved between team mates....
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 20:04 Post subject: Re: Got it
Monica wrote:
Mixed mom said....What I'm getting from your post above is that it offends you personally when a mixed person addresses their ancestry in ways that separate them from racial blackness but it's okay if they're merely telling a funny non-race related story about a non-black ancestor. Is my understanding correct?
Yes...it kinda relates to the story about what happened at pee wee football...your son was trying to do the souljah boy (which yes I admit...I've polished my moves which I can do seamlessly, LOL,Souljah boy, superman and a sanitized version of the super soaker)
I can only imagine how the conversation went between team mates but even IF the team-mate told him to "stop acting black"...it was a challenge to his souljah boy move, not a request for his geneology information...wouldn't the appropriate answer have been..."alright then show me how it's done"....
At 43 year old I've asked at least a dozen folks (kids and teens and old folks I want to harrass) to do "their" souljah boy move...cause everyone interpets the moves differently...
so how was the issue resolved between team mates....
My take on this is, this particular song and accompanying dance is thought to be a black cultural expression, in other words, a "black" song which is "owned" by blacks. A lot of people think that my son looks white (this boy referred to my son as "WHITE BOY") and because of this, perhaps the Souljah Boy dance falls outside the "jurisdiction" of what white people are "allowed" to participate in. Because color and race was associated with this dance by this black boy on my son's team, this young man must deem this as a "black" dance. A proper address to my son would have been, "Hey, you're doing that dance wrong!", rather than associating "trying to act black" with doing this dance. Do black people indeed own this Souljah Boy dance?! (rhetorical question) My son was asked a racialized question and he addressed the racialized aspect of this question which follows a logical train of thought. Without the race distraction, perhaps my son would have asked this young man how he does it.
Last edited by mixedmom on Thu 11 Oct 2007 20:10; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 20:32 Post subject: Answer
Mixedmom says...My take on this is, this particular song and accompanying dance is thought to be a black cultural expression, in other words, a "black" song which is "owned" by blacks. A lot of people think that my son looks white (this boy referred to my son as "WHITE BOY") and because of this, perhaps the Souljah Boy dance falls outside the "jurisdiction" of white people are "allowed" to participate in. Because color and race was associated with this dance by this black boy on my son's team, this young man must deem this as a "black" dance. A proper address to my son would have been, "Hey, you're doing that dance wrong!", rather than associating "trying to act black" with doing this dance. Do black people indeed own this Souljah Boy dance?! (rhetorical question) My son was asked a racialized question and he addressed the racialized aspect of this question which follows a logical train of thought. Without the race distraction, perhaps my son would have asked this young man how he does it.
here is the exchange between two 11 year olds who I'ma assume see each other often and I'ma assume have seen each others parents...it's a black song and a black dance...same way if I'm watching one of those Bollywood movies and I try to copy a dance move, I'm copying an indian dance...(even if they are doing the same dance on Dancing with the Stars, its the context and we are trying to dissect what happened with two 11 year olds)
Participation of whites is NOT the issue, the issue is you (anyone) are supposed to execute the moves seamlessly, when the phrase is said in the song.
A proper address in your opinion would have been "Hey, you're doing that dance wrong!"...but what the kid said is similar to what I say when I hear something shocking...I say "git the ---- outta here"...when some folks opinion might be I should say..."thats really shocking"...ain't gonna happen...people talk the way they talk...
so lets move on...was it logical to assume this boy was checking your son's racial pedigree...or questioning it...or asking for justification for his attempt to act black...I don't think a 11 year old was really trying to get that deep...but in the same way, if I say "git the --- outta here" and the personjust told me their house burnt down...and they immediately get up and walk away hurt...then it is up to me to explaon what I meant if I care about that person.
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 20:42 Post subject: Did you?
Mixedmom said....Would you also tell him to "Go back to your white family!"?
On a side note, this dance is way too much for me. I'm still stuck in the '80s. Give me the B-52's any day!!
ROCK LOBSTER!!!!
Why might the kid have told him to go back to his white family...depends on how "weird" he might have reacted after being critiqued on his Souljah Boy...the souljah boy something that basicly everyone does in a light hearted fashion...was your son really trying hard ...I'm sorry I had to laugh at my own words...
Did you used to go to the club and when that part of Rock lobster played...you laid on the floor and withered...that was a fun song..
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) to do a dance called the "Souljah Boy" that all the rage. Admittedly, my 11 year old son doesn't have many "racial" incidents (that I know about) and this was one of those rare times.