Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 23 Oct 2007 23:36 Post subject: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
Most people I know who hail from Trinidad look to me to have both African and South Asian ancestry. Admittedly, I'm not the best at guessing admixture based on appearance, though. I also don't know very many people from Trinidad. A Guyanese gentleman whom I once worked with looked kind of Turkish or Arabic, and when he first came to work there, he was asked by some co-workers if he is Middle Eastern. He always proudly answered, "No, I am Guyanese, and that's all you need to know."
Posted: Wed 24 Oct 2007 00:14 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
William wrote:
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
Most people I know who hail from Trinidad look to me to have both African and South Asian ancestry. Admittedly, I'm not the best at guessing admixture based on appearance, though. I also don't know very many people from Trinidad. A Guyanese gentleman whom I once worked with looked kind of Turkish or Arabic, and when he first came to work there, he was asked by some co-workers if he is Middle Eastern. He always proudly answered, "No, I am Guyanese, and that's all you need to know."
Note: The term dougla is used throughout the Caribbean and not just in Trinidad. It is not a derogatory term.
When you say "the Guyanas" do you mean Guyana and Suriname? Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
I'm not sure of any official numbers on intermarriage but I suspect the interbreeding (for lack of a better word) rates are much higher than the marriage rates.
With respect to your former coworker, you must understand that Guyana has people descended from Portugese, Arab, Turkish, Persian among other places. And mebers of each group have all mixed. My best friend is from Guyana and his father is white and his mother is black. His ex-wife is also Guyanese and her father is Japanese and her mother is East Indian. They have a son. Ask them what he is and they will say, "Guyanese".
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 24 Oct 2007 02:23 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
anonymouse wrote:
William wrote:
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
Most people I know who hail from Trinidad look to me to have both African and South Asian ancestry. Admittedly, I'm not the best at guessing admixture based on appearance, though. I also don't know very many people from Trinidad. A Guyanese gentleman whom I once worked with looked kind of Turkish or Arabic, and when he first came to work there, he was asked by some co-workers if he is Middle Eastern. He always proudly answered, "No, I am Guyanese, and that's all you need to know."
Note: The term dougla is used throughout the Caribbean and not just in Trinidad. It is not a derogatory term.
When you say "the Guyanas" do you mean Guyana and Suriname? Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
I'm not sure of any official numbers on intermarriage but I suspect the interbreeding (for lack of a better word) rates are much higher than the marriage rates.
With respect to your former coworker, you must understand that Guyana has people descended from Portugese, Arab, Turkish, Persian among other places. And mebers of each group have all mixed. My best friend is from Guyana and his father is white and his mother is black. His ex-wife is also Guyanese and her father is Japanese and her mother is East Indian. They have a son. Ask them what he is and they will say, "Guyanese".
Thanks. I suspect intermarriage or "interbreeding" is the norm there, as it is nearly everywhere else.
When I say "The Guyanas," I do indeed mean Guyana (formerly British Guiana), French Guiana (overseas dept. of France), and Suriname (formerly Dutch Guiana), as I believe all have received significant South Asian immigration. In fact, all have received significant immigration from various places.
If you don't mind my asking, from where in Europe does the European component in your friend hail? Portugal? I believe Portuguese (mainly Madeirans) arrived as indentured servants in sizeable numbers, and now are largely business owners. Their history and progress there, if I recall correctly, parallels the Chinese experience.
Note: The term dougla is used throughout the Caribbean and not just in Trinidad. It is not a derogatory term.
It may not be, but it means bastard in Hindi.
You mentioned Japanese component in Guyana earlier. How large is that community out there? I was always under the impression that the East Asian component was exclusively Chinese. Were they indentured servants like the Chinese and Indians or were they immigrants who migrated there in the early 20th Century?
Quote:
William wrote:
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
I have no data, but I suspect some data with respect to the Caribbean is out there. I'm not familiar with the Guyanas or Trinidad, but I've come across some information with respect to Indians in Jamaica. A book I read about Indo-Caribbean people (the name escapes me) made the claim that most Indians in Jamaica either had some African ancestry or were related to someone who had African ancestry. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but Indo-Jamaicans are some of the least "Indian" Indians in the Caribbean. I'd assume that outmarriage rates may be very high for them, especially if they are Christians as most (?) appear to be.
I have a book on Indo-Caribbeans. I'll see if it has any outmarriage numbers.
Note: The term dougla is used throughout the Caribbean and not just in Trinidad. It is not a derogatory term.
It may not be, but it means bastard in Hindi.
You mentioned Japanese component in Guyana earlier. How large is that community out there? I was always under the impression that the East Asian component was exclusively Chinese. Were they indentured servants like the Chinese and Indians or were they immigrants who migrated there in the early 20th Century?
Quote:
William wrote:
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
I have no data, but I suspect some data with respect to the Caribbean is out there. I'm not familiar with the Guyanas or Trinidad, but I've come across some information with respect to Indians in Jamaica. A book I read about Indo-Caribbean people (the name escapes me) made the claim that most Indians in Jamaica either had some African ancestry or were related to someone who had African ancestry. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but Indo-Jamaicans are some of the least "Indian" Indians in the Caribbean. I'd assume that outmarriage rates may be very high for them, especially if they are Christians as most (?) appear to be.
I have a book on Indo-Caribbeans. I'll see if it has any outmarriage numbers.
I did not think it was too large, smaller than that of Peru for example. But you will find them mostly in Georgetown.
Posted: Wed 24 Oct 2007 15:47 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
William wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
William wrote:
Does anyone have data on the out-marriage rate of Indo-Carribeans in their homelands? In this category, of course, are those from the Guyanas. I ask this question because a posting in one of the other fora mentioned Indo-Carribean and Afro-Carribean crosses in Trinidad, and gave a nickname for the offspring.
Most people I know who hail from Trinidad look to me to have both African and South Asian ancestry. Admittedly, I'm not the best at guessing admixture based on appearance, though. I also don't know very many people from Trinidad. A Guyanese gentleman whom I once worked with looked kind of Turkish or Arabic, and when he first came to work there, he was asked by some co-workers if he is Middle Eastern. He always proudly answered, "No, I am Guyanese, and that's all you need to know."
Note: The term dougla is used throughout the Caribbean and not just in Trinidad. It is not a derogatory term.
When you say "the Guyanas" do you mean Guyana and Suriname? Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
I'm not sure of any official numbers on intermarriage but I suspect the interbreeding (for lack of a better word) rates are much higher than the marriage rates.
With respect to your former coworker, you must understand that Guyana has people descended from Portugese, Arab, Turkish, Persian among other places. And mebers of each group have all mixed. My best friend is from Guyana and his father is white and his mother is black. His ex-wife is also Guyanese and her father is Japanese and her mother is East Indian. They have a son. Ask them what he is and they will say, "Guyanese".
Thanks. I suspect intermarriage or "interbreeding" is the norm there, as it is nearly everywhere else.
When I say "The Guyanas," I do indeed mean Guyana (formerly British Guiana), French Guiana (overseas dept. of France), and Suriname (formerly Dutch Guiana), as I believe all have received significant South Asian immigration. In fact, all have received significant immigration from various places.
If you don't mind my asking, from where in Europe does the European component in your friend hail? Portugal? I believe Portuguese (mainly Madeirans) arrived as indentured servants in sizeable numbers, and now are largely business owners. Their history and progress there, if I recall correctly, parallels the Chinese experience.
His father is British.
I was actually on a date last night (no I did not get lucky) with a young lady of East Indian extraction who was born in Suriname but raised in Guyana. Turns out her paternal grandfather was black and she loved him dearly (lucky me).
Usually that type of data is not collected but even the rabble rouser Panday (from trinidad) is said to have had a illegitimate son through a black woman. Some women have been noted to use the name of the father, if he is well known, as the son's surname!
There are time when certain North Indian families (at least in Trinidad) of poor background, when the daughter had an illegitimate child from a European, they would hide the father origin and blame it (the offspring) on their Bhojpuri North Indian origins!
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Thu 05 Jun 2008 03:59 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
But don't forget the border between Suriname and Guyana is quite porous and people slip back and forth as they please. I've not come across too many Surinamese people but the ones that have West Indian family (usually Guyana) consider themselves West Indians while the others tend not to
Posted: Thu 05 Jun 2008 18:57 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
dahlin wrote:
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
The Mixed Population in Trinidad is bigger than most people think, when i look at the Children in my Home Town, half of them are of Mixed heritage, and their are other large Mixed race areas in the Country.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Fri 06 Jun 2008 01:28 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
The Mixed Population in Trinidad is bigger than most people think, when i look at the Children in my Home Town, half of them are of Mixed heritage, and their are other large Mixed race areas in the Country.
ITA. Regardless of how people may identify themselves, likely around half the country is mixed...
Posted: Fri 06 Jun 2008 13:15 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
dahlin wrote:
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
The Mixed Population in Trinidad is bigger than most people think, when i look at the Children in my Home Town, half of them are of Mixed heritage, and their are other large Mixed race areas in the Country.
ITA. Regardless of how people may identify themselves, likely around half the country is mixed...
Maybe even more than half, for all we know , a lot of Mixed Peoples identify themselves with the "Black " Community of TnT, also i know a lot of Indo Trini's who are by definition really Douglas but because they can pass for Indian and may have grown up entirely with the Indian side of their Family identifies themselves as such.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 13:33 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
The Mixed Population in Trinidad is bigger than most people think, when i look at the Children in my Home Town, half of them are of Mixed heritage, and their are other large Mixed race areas in the Country.
ITA. Regardless of how people may identify themselves, likely around half the country is mixed...
Maybe even more than half, for all we know , a lot of Mixed Peoples identify themselves with the "Black " Community of TnT, also i know a lot of Indo Trini's who are by definition really Douglas but because they can pass for Indian and may have grown up entirely with the Indian side of their Family identifies themselves as such.
Agreed. Not to mention many Indians are actually mixed with Spanish, Syrian, Carib or Portuguese as well. The same with the African population. Half is more so a conservative number, as it may be significantly more than that. People really need to embrace that more. Trinidad is such a beautiful and diverse nation. The racial issues - though not as bad as could be - really ought not have a place. But you know how it is...
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 13:53 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
dahlin wrote:
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
Spiral wrote:
dahlin wrote:
I'm unsure of any statistics. The mixed population in Trinidad is growing at the fastest rate. Not sure about other WI nations...
anonymouse wrote:
Guyana even though located in South America is considered West Indian with regard to culture. Suriname is not.
Disagree about Suriname. One can definitely find Surinamese who consider themselves West Indian. There is a language barrier but plenty similarities. Far more with other WI nations, than others within South America imho.
The Mixed Population in Trinidad is bigger than most people think, when i look at the Children in my Home Town, half of them are of Mixed heritage, and their are other large Mixed race areas in the Country.
ITA. Regardless of how people may identify themselves, likely around half the country is mixed...
Maybe even more than half, for all we know , a lot of Mixed Peoples identify themselves with the "Black " Community of TnT, also i know a lot of Indo Trini's who are by definition really Douglas but because they can pass for Indian and may have grown up entirely with the Indian side of their Family identifies themselves as such.
Agreed. Not to mention many Indians are actually mixed with Spanish, Syrian, Carib or Portuguese as well. The same with the African population. Half is more so a conservative number, as it may be significantly more than that. People really need to embrace that more. Trinidad is such a beautiful and diverse nation. The racial issues - though not as bad as could be - really ought not have a place. But you know how it is...
Thanks for all the helpful answers. My reason for starting this thread was to find out how exogamous the Indian population was/is in the Guyanas (and also the West Indies), and you guys have answered my questions. The Indian population is no different from any other (contrary to what I've been led to believe by a few friends), in that they've mixed with the rest as well, to the point that even the segments of the populations that identify as Indian have extraneous admixture.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 14:02 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
William wrote:
Thanks for all the helpful answers. My reason for starting this thread was to find out how exogamous the Indian population was/is in the Guyanas (and also the West Indies), and you guys have answered my questions. The Indian population is no different from any other (contrary to what I've been led to believe by a few friends), in that they've mixed with the rest as well, to the point that even the segments of the populations that identify as Indian have extraneous admixture.
Of course, not every Indian is mixed but plenty are whether admitted or not. I believe when Indian men first came, there were not always enough Indian women for them. More women were brought later. Some intermarried, and then some later married back Indian etc. People have been mixing for a long time. Now, I would not necessarily say that Indians have mixed as much in the Guyanas, as the rest of the West Indies though. But is there mixture among Indians? Absolutely.
The Indian population is no different from any other (contrary to what I've been led to believe by a few friends), in that they've mixed with the rest as well, to the point that even the segments of the populations that identify as Indian have extraneous admixture.
I must add that their are lots of Indo -groups who wish to preserve Indian Indentity and culture, and their is still racial tensions between the Afro and Indian Communities in Trinidad and Guyana, but not as bad as some people from both countries would have non - nationals believe.
Mixing among the young has rapidly grown within the last two maybe three decades. How will this change the outlook of race within Trini society and the larger Caribbean basin , well one can only guess. lets hope for a positive outcome.
Quote:
I believe when Indian men first came, there were not always enough Indian women for them. More women were brought later. Some intermarried, and then some later married back Indian etc. People have been mixing for a long time.
This was especially true for the early Chinese labourers that came to Trinidad, they mostly married into the Black and Mulatto populations.
Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 00:19 Post subject: Re: Question on Indo-Carribean out-marriage rate
dahlin wrote:
[. I believe when Indian men first came, there were not always enough Indian women for them. More women were brought later. Some intermarried, and then some later married back Indian etc..
This is quite true. many Indian men married and or had children with black or Chinese women. What happened after that might have depended on whether the Indian who outmarried was excluded from his Indian family causing his mixed kids to identify more with the other side.
I do have a suspicion that Indians have intermarried more in Trinidad than in Guyana though this has been increasing in the latter over the last 10-20 years.
The Indian population is no different from any other (contrary to what I've been led to believe by a few friends), in that they've mixed with the rest as well, to the point that even the segments of the populations that identify as Indian have extraneous admixture.
I must add that their are lots of Indo -groups who wish to preserve Indian Indentity and culture, and their is still racial tensions between the Afro and Indian Communities in Trinidad and Guyana, but not as bad as some people from both countries would have non - nationals believe.
Mixing among the young has rapidly grown within the last two maybe three decades. How will this change the outlook of race within Trini society and the larger Caribbean basin , well one can only guess. lets hope for a positive outcome.
Quote:
I believe when Indian men first came, there were not always enough Indian women for them. More women were brought later. Some intermarried, and then some later married back Indian etc. People have been mixing for a long time.
This was especially true for the early Chinese labourers that came to Trinidad, they mostly married into the Black and Mulatto populations.
The need to forget about race completely , and move on. FOrget about who is in power and just do good, without the race crap. What is the point of race anyways? just to throw people into groups.
'
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