The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' Why Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are Bad for Black Women Goto page 1, 2  Next          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Women's Interests -- Men Welcome Author Message zsana Moderator Joined: 05 Feb 2005 {Posts: 1013 } Posted: Wed 20 Dec 2006 20:25    Post subject: Why Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are Bad for Black Women Why Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are Bad for Black Women Jennifer Carr Brooklyn, US http://wonsadamaa.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-halle-berry-and-vanessa-williams.html Quote: Just about all Americans agree that our society suffers from color prejudice. Many would refuse to openly acknowledge it in such blatant terms, but if pressed would admit that European skin and features are depicted as the most desirable while African skin and features are rated at the bottom of the totem pole. Moreover, they may unconsciously (or even consciously) hold these views themselves. Celebrities of all stripes understand this reality quite well, and act upon it accordingly. Yes, we all agree that "black is beautiful", but when was the last time you saw a black female celebrity consistently wearing her hair without a perm? Black America suffers from some serious schizophrenia on this issue. Charges of light-skinned bias are issued against the fashion, music and film industries on a regular basis for their choices of representation. But black folks complained little when Halle Berry was described as the first African American woman to win an Oscar. In fact, more often then not when racially mixed celebrities buck the black race patrol and refuse to one drop themselves, the outcry of "sell out" and "race traitor" is not far behind. With the exception of those biracials who are too light to pass as only black, no one suffers more from this hypocrisy then black women. Not only are they unable by nature's design to compete with European standards of beauty, they are also forced to contend with so-called black women whom they could never look like either. It seems obvious that black women will only be able to develop healthy self images when authentic representations of their physical traits are depicted. Conversely, this means biracial and mixed raced people who refuse to identify as such will continue to disadvantage black women in their ability to find beauty in their African features, kinky/curly hair and dark skin. Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. Back to top ItalianWriterBi New User Joined: 11 Mar 2007 {Posts: 10 } Location: Michigan Posted: Fri 16 Mar 2007 01:55    Post subject: Re: Why Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are Bad for Black Women zsana wrote: Why Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are Bad for Black Women Quote: Just about all Americans agree that our society suffers from color prejudice. Many would refuse to openly acknowledge it in such blatant terms, but if pressed would admit that European skin and features are depicted as the most desirable while African skin and features are rated at the bottom of the totem pole. Moreover, they may unconsciously (or even consciously) hold these views themselves. Celebrities of all stripes understand this reality quite well, and act upon it accordingly. Yes, we all agree that "black is beautiful", but when was the last time you saw a black female celebrity consistently wearing her hair without a perm? Black America suffers from some serious schizophrenia on this issue. Charges of light-skinned bias are issued against the fashion, music and film industries on a regular basis for their choices of representation. But black folks complained little when Halle Berry was described as the first African American woman to win an Oscar. In fact, more often then not when racially mixed celebrities buck the black race patrol and refuse to one drop themselves, the outcry of "sell out" and "race traitor" is not far behind. With the exception of those biracials who are too light to pass as only black, no one suffers more from this hypocrisy then black women. Not only are they unable by nature's design to compete with European standards of beauty, they are also forced to contend with so-called black women whom they could never look like either. It seems obvious that black women will only be able to develop healthy self images when authentic representations of their physical traits are depicted. Conversely, this means biracial and mixed raced people who refuse to identify as such will continue to disadvantage black women in their ability to find beauty in their African features, kinky/curly hair and dark skin. Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. HMM I AGREE WITH THE BLACK WOMEN ATTAINING BEAUTY STANDARDS FOR THEMSELVES..BUT HALLE AND VANESSA BAD?SHOOO..MMM SEXY!! AND ACTUALLY I FOR ONE LOVE KINKY/CURLY HAIR AND HONEY/MILK CHOC./BROWN SKIN... Back to top Creole GAL Experienced User Joined: 12 Mar 2007 {Posts: 183 } Posted: Fri 16 Mar 2007 17:27    Post subject: I really hate things like this article. I really believe that all people are beautiful regardless of color or skin tone. It is something that has nothing to do with that. It is an eye of beholder thing. I hate leaving a list as an example of who I think as pretty and some average and of various colors ,shades, ethnic groups. Regarded as pretty; Diahann Carroll, Vanessa Williams, Jayne Kennedy(from her days ), Halle Berry, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson(though her natural look has been much altered), Michelle (Obama) Bracak, Linda Johnson Rice and her mother Eunice Johnson, Oprah( think so when she is made all made and Oprah is not shy or shameful of showing herself without makeup and the works), Lena Horne,Solded o'Brien, AnnCurry, Kimora Lee, Tyra Banks, Fredreicka Winfield, Jessica Simpson, Vanessa Manillo. Back to top bronxnik New User Joined: 24 Dec 2007 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Wed 26 Dec 2007 22:01    Post subject: >>> they are also forced to contend with so-called black women I'm waiting to see a piece of evidence of these two gals having had their careers stifled by all that dissing in the "real black" hair salon conversations.... you ever heard of, "call me anything you want, but spell my name correctly!" controversy is GOOD for an aspiring actress. Without it, she's just another barbie doll trying to get a job without doing a porno to pay the rent. "actresses are cattle" - Alfred Hitchcock Back to top Famu Mentor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 {Posts: 243 } Posted: Thu 03 Jan 2008 00:29    Post subject: Quote: Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. Good grief. How about this radical idea: Let's define our own personal standards of beauty based not on what other people tell us is beautiful, but what we see represented in our mothers, grandmothers, sisters and daughters. Which, for a large majority, include Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry. Back to top MP mulattoprince Wizard Joined: 10 Apr 2007 {Posts: 464 } Posted: Thu 03 Jan 2008 10:39    Post subject: Some people don't like basing their standard of beauty on how their mother, sister, grandmothers, fathers look. There are people who look the way they look because they do look like their fathers, mothers, and family and they don't like what they see. Even though they are representatives of their families. On top of that -- the article is interesting. Certain black women who look more sub Saharan African which they inherited from their parents or parent and family don't like their looks. So not every African American female is happy about seeing a Vanessa Williams who inherited her looks from her parents. The reason is partially because they keep claiming Vanessa Williams to be one of them (African American), when they don't have to claim her. The law does not force legally any more African Americans to claim men and women who look like Vanessa Williams. The ODR law was removed in 1967, so why do they keep claiming Vanessa and mixed people thus adding on purpose to their pain. Stop claiming them. Now if there are light skin blacks who enjoy being self identified as African American them let them be African American. At the same time by them being African Americans their presence will always be a reminder to darker skin blacks that not all people labeled African American are sub Saharan African in phenotype. Thus the colorism will continue. Back to top sagascend Moderator Joined: 17 Jun 2006 {Posts: 2087 } Posted: Thu 03 Jan 2008 13:45    Post subject: mulattoprince wrote: Stop claiming them. Now if there are light skin blacks who enjoy being self identified as African American them let them be African American . Quote: claim (klm) tr.v. claimed, claim·ing, claims 1. To demand, ask for, or take as one's own or one's due: claim a reward; claim one's luggage at the airport carousel. 2. To take in a violent manner as if by right: a hurricane that claimed two lives. 3. To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain: claimed he had won the race; a candidate claiming many supporters. 4. To deserve or call for; require: problems that claim her attention. n. 1. A demand for something as rightful or due. 2. A basis for demanding something; a title or right. 3. Something claimed in a formal or legal manner, especially a tract of public land staked out by a miner or homesteader. You need to take your own advice. Vanessa Williams is a self-declared Black woman, so perhaps you (and the author of this article) should respect her identity choice by focusing your "claiming" comments elsewhere. Now feel free to provide direct quotes from Vanessa in which she indicates that she is being "claimed" as Black despie her wishes. I am also asking you to cease labeling African Americans as "them," and "they" if you are going to persist in having this "claiming" discussion. Please speak specifically of the African Americans who "claim" people or not at all. Keeping the definition posted above may help keep some perspective in this conversation. Matter of fact I am growing weary of the use of this term: claiming. What does it even mean in this context? Calling someone "Black" is not claiming them. Insisting that a person who does not identify as "Black" is "Black" is claiming. Are White people who call Jennifer Beals and Wentworth Miller "Whites" claiming them? Maybe they just see them as "White" people. It makes perfect sense to me for Black people to see Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry as Black women. Back to top Famu Mentor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 {Posts: 243 } Posted: Thu 03 Jan 2008 20:02    Post subject: Quote: Some people don't like basing their standard of beauty on how their mother, sister, grandmothers, fathers look. There are people who look the way they look because they do look like their fathers, mothers, and family and they don't like what they see. Even though they are representatives of their families. If the woman who wrote this article advocates black women to look towards other (dark) black womlen to find their standards of beauty, I find nothing wrong with women looking at the other women in their families to find their standard of beauty. Am I advocating for every woman to do this? No. That's not really the point. Quote: On top of that -- the article is interesting. Certain black women who look more sub Saharan African which they inherited from their parents or parent and family don't like their looks. So not every African American female is happy about seeing a Vanessa Williams who inherited her looks from her parents. No, not every African American woman who looks more sub Saharan African is happy about seeing Vanessa Williams as "black". And? Quote: The reason is partially because they keep claiming Vanessa Williams to be one of them (African American), when they don't have to claim her. The law does not force legally any more African Americans to claim men and women who look like Vanessa Williams. The ODR law was removed in 1967, so why do they keep claiming Vanessa and mixed people thus adding on purpose to their pain. Claim? Vanessa Williams, who looks like many black women in my family, identifies as black. Many African Americans who have light skin have been part of a culture that either identifies as "Black", or identifies as part of a specific black culture--such as my family and the Geechee. Am I one dropping myself because my hair might not be a specific texture? Or because my nose isn't as broad? If we're on the subject, I guess we need to define what the threshold is between "white", "black" and "mixed". Is it based solely on skin colour, hair texture or nose length? Is it based on actual heritage? Is it based on something else, like personal identity? You seem to be intent on the idea that black women are "claiming" women who don't identify as black. Many light skinned and biracial/multiracial black women personally identify as black. Quote: Stop claiming them. Now if there are light skin blacks who enjoy being self identified as African American them let them be African American. At the same time by them being African Americans their presence will always be a reminder to darker skin blacks that not all people labeled African American are sub Saharan African in phenotype. Thus the colorism will continue. I believe you have a simplistic interpretation of what colourism is. Colourism won't just stop because lighter skinned African Americans gain a new categorization. Back to top gs56ca Regular User Joined: 26 Jan 2008 {Posts: 69 } Posted: Tue 05 Feb 2008 15:06    Post subject: hahaahhah Once again stupid , stupid, stupid. Excuse me for my cynism, but why do people even bother to base their own self-esteem on the success of others? Back to top Helena21 New User Joined: 22 Jun 2007 {Posts: 43 } Posted: Thu 06 Mar 2008 21:29    Post subject: Re: hahaahhah gs56ca wrote: Once again stupid , stupid, stupid. Excuse me for my cynism, but why do people even bother to base their own self-esteem on the success of others? Thank you!! Why do people need celebrities to look up to?? Honestly??Vanessa and Halle are not an influence in my life. Back to top Bischoff Mentor Joined: 20 Jan 2008 {Posts: 395 } Posted: Sat 12 Apr 2008 22:30    Post subject: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? Back to top OTHER Moderator-at-Large Joined: 14 Sep 2007 {Posts: 904 } Location: Florida Posted: Sun 13 Apr 2008 13:05    Post subject: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? That's a good point. I imagine that some white women who are not blonde might think so. Think about how many non-blondes dye their hair blonde, ESPECIALLY in Hollywood. Hmm, I wonder if brunettes and redheads are the ones that started all of those "dumb blonde" jokes. Back to top Hanzou Mentor Joined: 05 Nov 2005 {Posts: 261 } Posted: Mon 02 Jun 2008 03:09    Post subject: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. Back to top Paloma_Palmares New User Joined: 30 May 2008 {Posts: 15 } Location: This Universe Posted: Tue 03 Jun 2008 18:57    Post subject: Hanzou wrote: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. What exactly are "strong" SSA features? And have you any studies that profess a strong connection between those features and African Americans? That said, I strongly disagree with the original author's assessment, most centered on this assertion: Quote: Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Wrong. And misleading. Back to top Hanzou Mentor Joined: 05 Nov 2005 {Posts: 261 } Posted: Fri 06 Jun 2008 03:34    Post subject: Paloma_Palmares wrote: Hanzou wrote: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. What exactly are "strong" SSA features? And have you any studies that profess a strong connection between those features and African Americans? You mean other than the fact that the heritage of the majority of AAs comes from the western coast of Africa? SSA features are features that resemble the indigenous people of Sub-Saharan Africa. Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry doesn't have those features. Back to top gemini072 Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2678 } Posted: Fri 06 Jun 2008 04:19    Post subject: Hanzou wrote: Paloma_Palmares wrote: Hanzou wrote: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. What exactly are "strong" SSA features? And have you any studies that profess a strong connection between those features and African Americans? You mean other than the fact that the heritage of the majority of AAs comes from the western coast of Africa? SSA features are features that resemble the indigenous people of Sub-Saharan Africa. Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry doesn't have those features. Now you know your trying to continue: the Attractiveness of/Attraction to Black Women: Alek Wek discussion here right? Back to top Famu Mentor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 {Posts: 243 } Posted: Sun 29 Jun 2008 17:40    Post subject: Hanzou wrote: Paloma_Palmares wrote: Hanzou wrote: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. What exactly are "strong" SSA features? And have you any studies that profess a strong connection between those features and African Americans? You mean other than the fact that the heritage of the majority of AAs comes from the western coast of Africa? SSA features are features that resemble the indigenous people of Sub-Saharan Africa. Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry doesn't have those features. Do you mean "all" the features or "some" of the features? And I guess what Paloma is asking is that do you see a connection between, say, what you deem to be indigenous Sub-Saharan African features, and African Americans. You have to be more specific when you're talking about features. What are you talking about ? Break it down. Back to top Grasshoppa Experienced User Joined: 07 Oct 2007 {Posts: 188 } Location: United States Posted: Sun 29 Jun 2008 18:43    Post subject: Quote: Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Wait...they don't? Is the author sure about this statement? There is substantial evidence disproving this claim. Quote: Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. Maybe she is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans, but so are many other AAs... Quote: She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. I could also say that she IS a black woman. And that she IS a white woman. I wouldn't be wrong either, as the definition of bi-racial is "of two 'races'". [/quote] Back to top gemini072 Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2678 } Posted: Mon 30 Jun 2008 03:54    Post subject: Grasshoppa wrote: Quote: Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Wait...they don't? Is the author sure about this statement? There is substantial evidence disproving this claim. Quote: Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. Maybe she is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans, but so are many other AAs... Quote: She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. I could also say that she IS a black woman. And that she IS a white woman. I wouldn't be wrong either, as the definition of bi-racial is "of two 'races'". [/quote] She isn't even biracial as in having a Black parent & a white parent. Back to top Salsassin Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 } Posted: Tue 01 Jul 2008 16:51    Post subject: gemini072 wrote: Hanzou wrote: Paloma_Palmares wrote: Hanzou wrote: Bischoff wrote: Are blonde women bad for White women (especially redheads and brunettes) because they usually get more media attention and are seen as the epitome/pinnacle of White female beauty ? A bottle can change a brunette or redhead into a blonde. A "black" woman with strong SSA features can never resemble Williams' mixed phenotype. What exactly are "strong" SSA features? And have you any studies that profess a strong connection between those features and African Americans? You mean other than the fact that the heritage of the majority of AAs comes from the western coast of Africa? SSA features are features that resemble the indigenous people of Sub-Saharan Africa. Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry doesn't have those features. Now you know your trying to continue: the Attractiveness of/Attraction to Black Women: Alek Wek discussion here right? You noticed that too? Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Women's Interests -- Men Welcome All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group