Speaking of which, I'm glad to stumble upon this thread because for the past several months I've been having discussions with a couple of relatives trying to discern how my grandmother must have viewed herself. (She died when I was only 2. )
Here is her pic. To those of you familiar with West Indian culture, what would she have been considered in Jamaica, Barbados, and in the West Indies (Caribbean! ), in general? Thanks!
I think she may have been considered mixed or a light skinned black.
In Haiti, depending on who you ask, she'd be mulatta (mulatre) if she spoke French. If she was a part of my family she would insist on being called Black or, more preferably, Haitian. She even looks a little like my great aunt.
Speaking of which, I'm glad to stumble upon this thread because for the past several months I've been having discussions with a couple of relatives trying to discern how my grandmother must have viewed herself. (She died when I was only 2. )
Here is her pic. To those of you familiar with West Indian culture, what would she have been considered in Jamaica, Barbados, and in the West Indies (Caribbean! ), in general? Thanks!
I think she may have been considered mixed or a light skinned black.
Brown or "red", depending on the country. However because of her facial features she might also be called black by some. Its a grey area and many dont even want to get into it as its increasingkly irrelevant.
Last edited by caribj on Thu 03 Jan 2008 18:25; edited 1 time in total
[Your claim that "Its very unusual to describe PR and DR and CUba as West Indian islands" is also of the same type. If what you actually meant was, "It is very unusual for English-speaking people of the West Indies to refer to Spanish-speaking people of the West Indies as "West Indians," now is the time to clarify (and provide someting other than simply re-iterating the claim). The way you stated it (and your subsequent detailed re-iteration) makes it sound as if the English invented the term "Las Indias Occidentales," which is still in use.
For my education (I live in New York). is it customary for Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and Cubans to refer to themselves as West Indians? I never hear that description. I have heard West Indian to refer to people from the English, and less often the French and Dutch speaking Caribbean.
When people talk about the West Indies cricket team its quite clear to what they refer to. The University of the West Indies (UWI) is quite clear in what its mission is. When people in New York refer to West Indians its (almost) always understood to whom they refer.
When people want to refer to the Caribbean as a whole the term CARIBBEAN is used. West Indies was a term used by the British to describe their former colonies. I think that most others considered "Indies" to be Columbus's mistake. In fact West Indies is often used instead of the term English Speaking Caribbean as it is brief and to most means the same thing, whereas the latter term is a mouthful even if more accurate.
If what you are saying is true, then why do people sometimes use the term "British West Indies" to make a distinction? If West Indies = British West Indies, then isn't it redundant and useless to say "British West Indies"?
Now, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from* when you state that when people say "West Indian" they mean a certain thing and that it usually does NOT include Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hispaniola. However, popular usage does not negate the fact that those islands are in the West Indies.
*I understand because I am from NJ and some of my own "West Indian" family members have lived in Jamaica, Queens since my grandmother's parents came over from Jamaica. She is 3/4 Jamaican and 1/4 Bajan, by the way. Of course, the list of ALL that she's mixed with is LONG!
British West Indian is an archaic term except for Turks & Caicos, Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, and Anguilla. The rest of us are independent, have our own citizenship and some of us even need visas in order to visit the UK. In addition tell some more militant West Indians that they are "British" and you might get a serious reaction while they tell you about the ills of colonialism etc. Inaddition to the fcat that these islands are now all culturally colonized by the US (note the popularity of CNN, Pizza Hut, etc which has fast displaced local culture and news sources).
Speaking of which, I'm glad to stumble upon this thread because for the past several months I've been having discussions with a couple of relatives trying to discern how my grandmother must have viewed herself. (She died when I was only 2. )
Here is her pic. To those of you familiar with West Indian culture, what would she have been considered in Jamaica, Barbados, and in the West Indies (Caribbean! ), in general? Thanks!
I think she may have been considered mixed or a light skinned black.
In Trinidad, she could be anything even Asian Indian but certainly not European
When people talk about the West Indies cricket team its quite clear to what they refer to. The University of the West Indies (UWI) is quite clear in what its mission is. When people in New York refer to West Indians its (almost) always understood to whom they refer.
When people want to refer to the Caribbean as a whole the term CARIBBEAN is used. West Indies was a term used by the British to describe their former colonies. I think that most others considered "Indies" to be Columbus's mistake. In fact West Indies is often used instead of the term English Speaking Caribbean as it is brief and to most means the same thing, whereas the latter term is a mouthful even if more accurate.
If what you are saying is true, then why do people sometimes use the term "British West Indies" to make a distinction? If West Indies = British West Indies, then isn't it redundant and useless to say "British West Indies"?
Now, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from* when you state that when people say "West Indian" they mean a certain thing and that it usually does NOT include Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hispaniola. However, popular usage does not negate the fact that those islands are in the West Indies.
*I understand because I am from NJ and some of my own "West Indian" family members have lived in Jamaica, Queens since my grandmother's parents came over from Jamaica. She is 3/4 Jamaican and 1/4 Bajan, by the way. Of course, the list of ALL that she's mixed with is LONG!
British West Indian is an archaic term except for Turks & Caicos, Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, and Anguilla. The rest of us are independent, have our own citizenship and some of us even need visas in order to visit the UK. In addition tell some more militant West Indians that they are "British" and you might get a serious reaction while they tell you about the ills of colonialism etc. Inaddition to the fcat that these islands are now all culturally colonized by the US (note the popularity of CNN, Pizza Hut, etc which has fast displaced local culture and news sources).
That's not what I mean. My point was that there is the "greater" West Indies and then there's the "British West Indies". I wasn't saying all of those islands were still under the Queen.
[That's not what I mean. My point was that there is the "greater" West Indies and then there's the "British West Indies". I wasn't saying all of those islands were still under the Queen.
I dont hear anything about a "Greater West Indies" other than from fwsweets. The term usually used to capture the entire region is "Caribbean". BWI is an archaic definition, and even within the English speaking Caribbean itself "Caribbean" is increasingly used instead of "West Indies", especially with the increased linkages between the various linguistic groups. I think the term "West Indies" survives more in the USA as a short hand way of differentiating Caribbean peoples from the English speaking caribbean who are culturally distinct and usually have little to do with Hispanic Caribbean people in NYC.
To say "British West Indies" is to say that they live under the Queen. "British" is a specific nationality. Clearly Jamaicans and Guyanese who need visas to visit he UK arent British West Indians whereas as Caymanians who travel on British passports (or some version there of) clearly are.
BTW when Columbus thought he arrived in the Indies he made a mistake so "Indies" is an inaccurate description. "Caribbean" is OK given that the name is taken from the Caribs who were one of the original inhabitants of the region.
Speaking of which, I'm glad to stumble upon this thread because for the past several months I've been having discussions with a couple of relatives trying to discern how my grandmother must have viewed herself. (She died when I was only 2. )
Here is her pic. To those of you familiar with West Indian culture, what would she have been considered in Jamaica, Barbados, and in the West Indies (Caribbean! ), in general? Thanks!
I think she may have been considered mixed or a light skinned black.
In Trinidad, she could be anything even Asian Indian but certainly not European
Thats is quite true.
Question for you. You speak about superior access as (I guess) some one of either Frech creole, or mixed French/African creole ancestry. Is color still an important indicator of status in Trinidad?
Its very unusual to describe PR and DR and CUba as West Indian islands.
You have 24 hours to provide a source for this outrageous claim.
Caribj has re-iterated the above assertion in several subsequent posts, with increaing vehemence and increasing self-confidence. And yet he has provided no source. Unless a source is provided within two hours, or he modifies the claim to be less implausible (perhaps as suggested in http://onedroprule.org/viewtopic.php?p=34137#34137) his posting privilege will be suspended. No more warnings. This is not an invitation to debate. This is enforcement of site rules.
Hey Guys, a newbie here and this is my first post in this very interesting and informative online forum. I've read the rules but i can't seem to remember all of them so i hope that i don't get into trouble with the Administrator .
Well i am from Trinidad , for real, i write this post from my home in the south of the country, and while I am a person who does not know everything maybe i can give a little insight into some things being also a person of mixed race and having at least a friend or two within the different groups in the country.
Well a couple of years ago a visiting Jamaican pastor at a church i attended once commented that every where he goes in Trinidad he notices that Trinidadians have an incorrect name to things that in other British West Indian Islands they have a similarly collective description for the thing or event.
When it comes to race we use terms and descriptions that have a particular social context in other societies and apply it to our situation, part of the reason is that we tend to copy a lot of things (especially from North America ) from other people with out knowing it's roots and true meaning.
The woman in the beginning of this thread with the Chinese husband if i was to see her right now i would say that she is mixed, i think it's kind of easy when you live in a mixed race society, however with a strong African phenotype i won't blame anyone seeing her at a distance or in a picture describing or referring to her as "black "
But i want to make one thing clear just because a person self identifies as mixed race does not mean they don't consider themselves part of the "Black " community which is made up Primarly but not exclusively of Afro - Trinidadians.
Calling someone Spanish in Trinidad just means that they have a Mixture other than East Indian, because most ' Venzuelans have a particular look, Mulattos here in Trinidad would be called Spanish even if they don't have any Latin roots. Trini's seeing all of them having similar features (light skin and eyes , mix features ) just lump them all together as "Spanish " because there is just no word in Society to describe all the variations. I have heard light skin Douglas being called Spanish ,because people couldn't figure them out.
Mixed race people here are not divided into "Pardos " and Morenos " although the Mulatto Community that mainly live to the north of the island "may " practice a sort of racial system similar to other British West Indian Islands, more info would have to be gathered.
So ok my first post, i hope that i did not Bore any of you, and it was a bit informative and i will continue to provide info to the best of my knowledge.
Hey Guys, a newbie here and this is my first post in this very interesting and informative online forum. ... So ok my first post, i hope that i did not Bore any of you, and it was a bit informative and i will continue to provide info to the best of my knowledge.
I have a question that you may not be able to answer because U.S. English and Trini English are different, but here it is anyway. My daughter-in-law's parents are Trini immigrants to the U.S. They are in their 60s, like me. He is light but mixed and considers himself Afro-Trinidadian ("coloured" in his words, never "black"). She is East-Indian Trinidadian. When they married, both sets of their parents were so upset that they refused to ever speak to them ever again. That resolution was abandoned, as you might expect, when grandchildren and then great-grandchildren arrived, but they seemed to be very serious about it at the time.
Here is my question: I know that part of the problem was religion (he is Catholic, she is Muslim) and that part of the problem was culture (Afro-Trini versus East Indian) and that part of the problem was class aspirations (she was from an upper-middle-class family and he was penniless--although years later he became a successful engineer). My question is this: Do you think, in the context of Trinidad a half-century ago, that the two families also saw each other as being of different "races" (in addition to all the other differences)?
Calling someone Spanish in Trinidad just means that they have a Mixture other than East Indian, because most ' Venzuelans have a particular look, Mulattos here in Trinidad would be called Spanish even if they don't have any Latin roots. Trini's seeing all of them having similar features (light skin and eyes , mix features ) just lump them all together as "Spanish " because there is just no word in Society to describe all the variations. I have heard light skin Douglas being called Spanish ,because people couldn't figure them out.
Hi, Spiral!
I just heard about that trend a week or so ago from a Britsh/Bajan member over at mulatto.org. She said in Trinidad, back in the day, my looks would be called "Spanish" and she was wondering if that term is still used to describe a certain look. I guess it is!
My question is this: Do you think, in the context of Trinidad a half-century ago, that the two families also saw each other as being of different "races" (in addition to all the other differences)?
In my humble opinion , Absolutely ....... and it's still something that is prevalent in Trinidad society today.
So ok if they were starting out today things would be much easier on them than it would of been all those years ago , partly because interracial couples are so common today , but depending on the woman's family Status in Trinidad and the in the Muslim Community it still would of been tough.
I have Observed that people in Trinidad & Tobago of a particular age bracket maybe 60 and over, it doesn't matter which racial group, have strong opinions about race Mixing and they continually advise the younger generation about the "other ", and naturally we don't listen.
I think that the different groups half a century ago (Mostly Afro Trinis and Indo Trinis ) lived and worked with each other in a relative calm but was careful not to cross the line with Sex & Religion.
I applaud your daughter -in-laws parents for their bravery , I think anywhere in the world it would of been difficult for any mix race couples around that time period, they are true pioneers.
Did they immigrate to the U.S to get away from the family and social pressure heaped upon them , or did they come to the U.S. because of better opportunities ? I hope that i have been helpful.
Last edited by Spiral on Fri 04 Jan 2008 13:37; edited 3 times in total
Calling someone Spanish in Trinidad just means that they have a Mixture other than East Indian, because most ' Venzuelans have a particular look, Mulattos here in Trinidad would be called Spanish even if they don't have any Latin roots. Trini's seeing all of them having similar features (light skin and eyes , mix features ) just lump them all together as "Spanish " because there is just no word in Society to describe all the variations. I have heard light skin Douglas being called Spanish ,because people couldn't figure them out.
Hi, Spiral!
I just heard about that trend a week or so ago from a Britsh/Bajan member over at mulatto.org. She said in Trinidad, back in the day, my looks would be called "Spanish" and she was wondering if that term is still used to describe a certain look. I guess it is!
Hey,...... nope even today, not only "back in the day" they would look at you and call you "Spanish, Spanish Gyal, Reds, or Red woman"and a bunch of other words that are fun or funny but not meant to be offensive.
Did they immigrate to the U.S to get away from the family and social pressure heaped upon them , or did they come to the U.S. because of better opportunities? I hope that i have been helpful.
Well, they do not talk about it much, but I get the impression that getting away from their disapproving familes was a big part of it. Also, as soon as they had children they moved to Canada and did not come back to the 'States until the kids were in college. They say that the reason was because they thought Canada was a friendlier place for mixed children. Thank you. You have been very helpful.
Question for you. You speak about superior access as (I guess) some one of either Frech creole, or mixed French/African creole ancestry. Is color still an important indicator of status in Trinidad
Colour still matters in T&T society. It is also coloured with caste, surname (less extent) and social status and it is more prevelant in NW and central T&T, where there is a large population centre. Yes, people can go where they want as long as they have access!
When Spain was in control, not many Spaniards wanted to go to a god forsaken island in the middle of nowhere! Many preferred areas of wealth or land to acquire property. A cedula of population was issued to non Spaniards (usually French) so they could migrate and they did so when slave rebellions form others islands (Haiti mainly) forced them out.
That made this French Creole group more predominant than the Spaniards in Trinidad. This French usually had some property, tended to be mixed ancestry and they had power over most other groups.
The French Creoles (whatever their mix) tended to be more native to T&T when compared to the English speaking blacks who arrived from places like Barbados, Grenada, St Vincent, who arrived around early 1900's.
Sometimes caste and colour go together in that the Presbyterian Church (from Canada) had a mission to convert Indians to Christianity and they thought that by doing this, all vestiges of jati and varna would disappear but it perisisted despite these efforts. The additional element created was that the Northern Indians (reperesented by Bhojpuri dialect-Uttar Pradesh) tended to be fairer than the Southern Indians (Madras) and since people of African ethnicity were black in the epidermal sense, they were given the default designation of 'lower caste' and that added to tension that persist today.
Just to add that around the same time these English speaking blacks (mostly) migrated to Trinidad, many also went to Colon, Panama to work on the Panama Canal.
Famous people in Panama like Ruben Blades (family from St Lucia) and the Camilo Alleyne (Barbados?) (Health Ministry of Panama) have West Indian roots. Alleyne is a popular Bajan surname!
Posted: Sat 05 Jan 2008 08:17 Post subject: Religion
fwsweet wrote:
Spiral wrote:
Hey Guys, a newbie here and this is my first post in this very interesting and informative online forum. ... So ok my first post, i hope that i did not Bore any of you, and it was a bit informative and i will continue to provide info to the best of my knowledge.
I have a question that you may not be able to answer because U.S. English and Trini English are different, but here it is anyway. My daughter-in-law's parents are Trini immigrants to the U.S. They are in their 60s, like me. He is light but mixed and considers himself Afro-Trinidadian ("coloured" in his words, never "black"). She is East-Indian Trinidadian. When they married, both sets of their parents were so upset that they refused to ever speak to them ever again. That resolution was abandoned, as you might expect, when grandchildren and then great-grandchildren arrived, but they seemed to be very serious about it at the time.
Here is my question: I know that part of the problem was religion (he is Catholic, she is Muslim) and that part of the problem was culture (Afro-Trini versus East Indian) and that part of the problem was class aspirations (she was from an upper-middle-class family and he was penniless--although years later he became a successful engineer). My question is this: Do you think, in the context of Trinidad a half-century ago, that the two families also saw each other as being of different "races" (in addition to all the other differences)?
I believe it is part of the Islamic religion that Muslim women are forbidden to marry non-Muslim men (unless the men convert). Muslim men have greater freedom to marry outside of the religion.
I believe it is part of the Islamic religion that Muslim women are forbidden to marry non-Muslim men (unless the men convert). Muslim men have greater freedom to marry outside of the religion.
The Indian Partner in an Afro/ Indian Relationship in Trinidad usually comes from a Hindu or Christian background. A Muslim partner while not rare, is less common.
Another possible reason for this is that the East Indian Muslim Community in Trinidad is much smaller than the other East Indian groups so maintaining control of the group would be much easier for it's leaders.
Quote:
Famous people in Panama like Ruben Blades (family from St Lucia)
Ruben Blades, who would of thought he had West Indian roots .
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