Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 20:00 Post subject: Re: Studies on Argentine Population
G-Man wrote:
What is evident from these articles is the belief that there are NO people in Argentina with visible African ancestry has no basis in reality.
Hi,
Of course there are Blacks in Argentina. In Hong Kong there are Blacks as well, but Hindues are more numerous.
The point is, how minoritary are they? Are they one in 10.000 people or 100.000 peoples or 1 in 1 million? Are they really representative of Argentine at all?
I say they are not.
If you see a Chilean musical group called Inti-Illimani you will see a Black musician in it. Ah! You will conclude, Chileans must be blacks then!
However, the musician of that group was born in Brazil.
This is people from Argentina:
And these are real Blacks for Argentina. The national soccer team.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 20:17 Post subject:
Chilean people:
The site says the following:
PEOPLE
Almost all of Chile's approximately 15 million inhabitants are of Spanish descent, many indigenous cultures having been significantly reduced in number or disappeared altogether, with the exception of the Mapuche people.
The area's native cultures were virtually wiped out during and after colonisation. The country’s population is heavily concentrated in urban areas (82% of the total), particularly in and around Santiago, the country's capital.
Region XI, Aysén - the area of southern Chilean Patagonia in which our expeditions take place - is very sparsely populated. Chile's common language is Spanish or Castellano.
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 20:37 Post subject: Re: Studies on Argentine Population
oevega wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
William wrote:
This one shows African ancestry in Buenos Aires:
The population of Argentina today does not have a "visible" black African component.
HA HA
If those are typical Argentineans I declare myself to be Martian ! :LOL:
I going to show those pictures to a friend of mine, who is Argentinean!
I will say him. "You see, dum lier, I always suspected you Argentinean were a bunch of Africans!".
For sanity. Stop Afrocentrist Bullshiting.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Get a clue. Just because they are a minority does not mean they do not exist or they are not visible enough. These people have always been there since times of slavery.
As for Chile:
They also exist as a minority, especially in the area of Arica.
Last edited by Salsassin on Thu 25 Aug 2005 20:43; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 20:56 Post subject: Re: Studies on Argentine Population
Salsassin wrote:
As for Chile:
---
They also exist as a minority, especially in the area of Arica.
Oro Negro. What a crap It is like Mexico's "Costa Chica"
Sure friend!
Those are the common Chileans I see in the street when I go to work.
Is truth! There must be about 100 (perhaps 1.000) Black chilean persons in the northern city of Arica. There are so numerous I never heared about them before. Arica was a Peruvian town captured by Chile a century ago. I guess some Peruvian slaves remained there.
Even Polynesians, Gypsies and Koreans are a lot more numerous than those fellows in my Country. Altough they make lots of noise, with the help of the international Afro alliance. I found it pathetic. What do they want?
As for those to be typical Chilean people, that's false. See the post of "William" which show real Chilean average people.
We do exist as a people.
We Chileans are a mixture of Spanish and Mapuches and proud of it. There are Minorities in my country, but they are not representative of the Chilean people. They deserve respect but our culture and tradition ALSO deserve respect in my country, at least.
Even in Peru, a country with a large Black population, the percentage of Africans is lower than 5% of the population. So, what's the point?
Again you both fail to get the point in your desperation to ignore Afro-Diasporic populations in Chile and Argentina. I have been to both and seen Afro-Chlienos and Afro-Argentinos. It is irrelevant that they are a small part of the population. The fact is they exist and they are visible. When you bump into one of them you know their ancestry by their features. Claims like "En argentina and Chile no hay negros" are blatantly false. Hay pocos, pero los hay.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 21:15 Post subject: Hi
Salsassin wrote:
Again you both fail to get the point in your desperation to ignore Afro-Diasporic populations in Chile and Argentina. I have been to both and seen Afro-Chlienos and Afro-Argentinos. It is irrelevant that they are a small part of the population. The fact is they exist and they are visible. When you bump into one of them you know their ancestry by their features. Claims like "En argentina and Chile no hay negros" are blatantly false. Hay pocos, pero los hay.
Desperation. Yeah! I am desesperated to hide something.
Listen. I know those tactics very well. Let's play the Goebbels game so at last people will believe whatever one say to them.
Afrocentrist are looking for friends around the continent. They have found certain countries lack Black populations of importance (more than 0.1% of the population I guess) and they are jumping to reveal the truth. That's pathetic.
The percentages are relevant
Otherwise let me claim Chileans make an important minority in Japan
Afro-Diasporic populations (what a name) where not common in Chile because my country can't afford to buy slaves in mass. We were a very poor country indeed, for most history.
You will find Africans everywhere in the Americas. But I tell you it is easier to find them in New York, Los Angeles and even in Paris or London than in Santiago. That's the truth.
Chilean don't need and adjective like "Afro" or "Sino" or whatever. We are plain and simply Chilean
Again you fail to have a clue. It has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. Afrocentrists try to present fabricated facts to make themselves feel better about themselves. These are not fabrications, but people who still do live in those countries and still identify with their African roots. As such they are both Chileans and Afro-Diasporic. Furthermore, because they are such an extreme minority, many times they do receive discrimination in the public presentation of people that look like them. And yes, even if there were 20 people of Chilean decent in Japan that still identified with that ancestry, there would be Chileno-Japanese. Your lack of capacity to accept that there are those that identify with their African roots in Chile just shows your racism.
And by the way, when Chileans in general stop calling those minorities stuff like Negro, Sambo, etc. when they do bump into them, then they can 'just be Chilean'
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 21:31 Post subject: Names
Salsassin wrote:
And by the way, when Chileans in general stop calling those minorities stuff like Negro, Sambo, etc. when they do bump into them, then they can 'just be Chilean'
Hi,
Are you kidding!
We love to called peoples by weird names! Whites are gringos, Asians are chinitos, Blacks are Negros (because in Spanish Black is negro ), Middle Easterners are Turks, Argentineans are "Ches", we even call ourselves "Shilenitos".
So what. We live in Chile and belong to a different society. If you don't like it live it (we say).
How come you speak about MY society if you don't even know it
Keep dreaming. I know Chilean Society quite well. I lived in both Santiago and Temuco. I am well aware that people call each other physical names. Just like Peru. I am also aware that many chileans, not all, are racist.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 25 Aug 2005 22:08 Post subject: Let it be then
Salsassin wrote:
Keep dreaming. I know Chilean Society quite well. I lived in both Santiago and Temuco. I am well aware that people call each other physical names. Just like Peru. I am also aware that many chileans, not all, are racist.
Let it be, then. Chilean don't like foreigners of any kind. That's one of our worst sins.
This discussion thread seems to have split into four topics. (1) What are the relative ratios of European, African, and Native American DNA admixture in today’s Argentineans? (2) What became of the large, civically active, nineteenth-century Afro-Argentine community? (3) What fraction of today’s Argentine population “looks Black” to Americans? (4) To what extent do today’s African-looking Argentineans self-identify as members of a “Black” ethnicity?
Each topic is worth discussing, but each discussion would benefit from presentation of factual data rather than from adding to the number of subjective impressions already expressed.
1. What are the relative ratios of European, African, and Native American DNA admixture in today’s Argentineans? The topic is interesting because it sheds light on how Americans, Argentineans, and others perceive “racially” important traits. For example, evidence has been presented that many Argentineans, Americans, and at least one Chilean perceive no African phenotype in the people of Argentina today. If studies were to show that the mean African admixture in Argentineans were, say, 10 percent, we could infer that it takes more African admixture than this to yield an “African-looking” phenotype. Nevertheless, although the topic is interesting, statements that ignore DNA admixture studies cannot move the discussion forward. I suggest that DNA admixture studies should be the focus of this topic.
2. What became of the large, civically active, nineteenth-century Afro-Argentine community? These people had their own schools, churches, neighborhoods, political leadership, and competing newspapers. They participated aggressively in Argentine politics in a struggle for acceptance. But their numbers dwindled, generation-by-generation, due to out-marriage, until their community vanished. Obviously, their genes exist within the millions of their descendants who are now members of mainstream (White) Argentine society. But did any of their traditions or customs survive in mainstream (White) Argentine society? Were any of their traditions or customs adopted by African-looking immigrants who later came from Africa, the Cape Verde Islands, or from Latin-American countries with greater African admixture? Again, the questions are worth discussing. But the discussion can only advance by introducing historical evidence of cultural survivals or resurgence.
3. What fraction of the Argentine population “looks Black” to Americans, or to Chileans, Puerto Ricans, etc.? The subject of the perception of “racial” traits is interesting because anyone can observe a subject and decide if he/she “looks Black,” and almost everyone believes that others must be seeing the same image (and are lying when they deny it), despite well-known evidence that “racial” perception varies dramatically among cultures. Some of us want to pursue the question of which Argentines “look Black” to whom. But this topic can only advance by presenting verifiable photos of real Argentineans, along with some indication whether they are merely recent immigrants.
4. To what extent do current African-looking Argentineans self-identify as members of a “Black” ethnicity (like U.S. Blacks do). Conversely, how many see themselves as Cape Verdeans, Brazilians, Dominicans, or simply as mainstream Argentineans who happen to look African (like African-looking Puerto Ricans do)? More importantly, to what extent is choice of ethnicity influenced by the U.S. media or by well-meaning non-governmental organizations. Again, a worthwhile topic. But it can advance only by presenting evidence of how African-looking Argentineans self-identify, not how we think they “should” self-identify.
I shall welcome comments and suggestion on the above. But, unless someone can come up with a reason not to, I plan to close this present discussion thread and open four new discussion threads as described above.
Posted: Fri 26 Aug 2005 23:12 Post subject: Re: Let's get it
oevega wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
Yeah, but some looks get more shit than others. Indios tambien.
Ok Ok,
You want to discuss it. Let's do it. Friendly, of course
What do you find so disgusting about our way of talking?
That we say our friends:
Hola, ¿como estas Negro?
Or to our women:
Mi chinita linda,
or
Mi perrita choca.
If you know us well, you would know the meaning of all these.
Mapuches is a different issue. If you want to talk about it SERIOUSLY, let's do it.
Yo no tengo pelos en la lengua.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Claro que si. Pero hay una differencia cuando lo usamos en terminos carinhosos, entre amigos, y cuando lo usamos como insultos contra extranhos. Cuando dicen 'negro de mierda' o que no, no lo hacen con carinho, cachay?
3. What fraction of the Argentine population “looks Black” to Americans, or to Chileans, Puerto Ricans, etc.? The subject of the perception of “racial” traits is interesting because anyone can observe a subject and decide if he/she “looks Black,” and almost everyone believes that others must be seeing the same image (and are lying when they deny it), despite well-known evidence that “racial” perception varies dramatically among cultures. Some of us want to pursue the question of which Argentines “look Black” to whom. But this topic can only advance by presenting verifiable photos of real Argentineans, along with some indication whether they are merely recent immigrants.
They can speak for themselves when they describe their experiences in their own countries. Remember that Looking a certain way is subjective, but wether they see them as Negros, Mulatos or what, if they feel ostracized because of a certain degree of visible African admixture, then they are not a dissapeared group that has fully integrated but legitimate sub-groups that still have unique experiences in both Argentina and Chile.
En Argentina "no hay negros" Oro Negro of Chile
Quote:
4. To what extent do current African-looking Argentineans self-identify as members of a “Black” ethnicity (like U.S. Blacks do). Conversely, how many see themselves as Cape Verdeans, Brazilians, Dominicans, or simply as mainstream Argentineans who happen to look African (like African-looking Puerto Ricans do)? More importantly, to what extent is choice of ethnicity influenced by the U.S. media or by well-meaning non-governmental organizations. Again, a worthwhile topic. But it can advance only by presenting evidence of how African-looking Argentineans self-identify, not how we think they “should” self-identify.
I shall welcome comments and suggestion on the above. But, unless someone can come up with a reason not to, I plan to close this present discussion thread and open four new discussion threads as described above.
I would say that them identifying as Black isn't as big as here, but them identifying as Afro-Diasporic and as a separate group from the mainstream is.
'
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