What should I do?

The Study of Racialism
Discussion of U.S. Racialism
Please read The Rules before posting.

FAQ

What should I do?
Goto page Previous 1, 2

The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Racial Identity and The Multiracial Experience

Author

Message

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Fri 29 Feb 2008 16:31 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

The only sources I know of are of personal experiences.

Then I suggest that your personal experiences contradict those of the vast majority of people living in the English-speaking West Indies. The most recent comprehensive study of this topic, Mary C. Waters, Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities (New York: Harvard University, 2001) spends pages 28-31 on this very subject of terminology (coloured versus black). Its findings are based on hundreds of interviews by the author, which she then matches to dozens of studies by others collected by the author, all of which were conducted after Brit rule ended. According to them, the term "coloured" for the Afro-Euro mixed phenotype is still very much alive in the islands.

It has been my experience that in coloured is just a euphemism for black but I am aware that was not the case in my parents days. I have not read that book but there is a Borders across the street so I might just pop in there at lunch. I do find it interesting that you see this debate as Euro vs Afro while you seem to ignore the sizeable Indo population of the West Indies. I do not. East Indians are the majority group in Guyana followed by blacks and are very close to becoming the majority in Trinidad as well. And due to the scarcity of jobs and a strong economy there has been an influx of East Indians into Barbados as well. In fact Hindu is the fastest growing religion in Barbados

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

Additionally my examples were not Euro-Afro mixes but Afro-Indo and/or Afro-Indo-Indigenous mixes...

Perhaps so. But your claim (as opposed to your examples) was about Euro-Afro mixes, was it not? Did jagirl32 said that she is Afro-Amerind or dougla? If she did, I must have missed it.

Jagirl32 claimed multiple mixes but she did not specify whether she was primarily Afro-Euro, Afro-indo or Afro-Amerind.

jagirl32 wrote:

Ok i'm an american born to jamaican parents. my mother is black (but mixed) and my father was (rest in peace) chinese, french, indian and jewish.

I did comment on this same topic in another thread that

anonymouse wrote:

But unless you look like Tami Chynn and have an ambiguous phenotype, very few people in the Anglophone West Indies would refer to you as mixed.

*edit*

Representatives of 3 West Indian countries: St. Lucia, Barbados & Guyana. One of these fellows is a Afro-Euro mix (technically a mulatto) but he identifies as black. I'll give you a hint: it is not the sun darkened chap in the Mets cap.

Last edited by anonymouse on Sun 04 May 2008 00:49; edited 1 time in total

fwsweet
Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5542 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 18:34 Post subject: Re: very interesting

anonymouse wrote:

It has been my experience that in coloured is just a euphemism for black...

The request was for a source. Personal experience is not a source. Stop trying to claim "personal experience" as a source. You have 24 hours to provide a credible peer-reviewed source that the present-day inhabitants of the former BWI use "coloured" as a euphemism fpr "black."

anonymouse wrote:

I do find it interesting that you see this debate as Euro vs Afro while you seem to ignore the sizeable Indo population of the West Indies.

This is thinly veiled ad hominem and an attempt to change the subject. First warning 2.2 and 3.6.2. You thesis, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

Regarding your photo: Your thesis is about most people in the English speaking West Indies. Are you really trying to claim that the photo was taken in the "English speaking West Indies"? If so, your credibility has vanished. Look at the flags. Please refrain from claiming that PR (where the photo was taken) is among the "English speaking West Indies." It is not. It is one of the Spanish-speaking West Indies.

anonymouse wrote:

One of these fellows is a Afro-Euro mix (technically a mulatto) but he identifies as black.

The dispute is not about how U.S.-born descendants of immigrants from the West Indies self-identify. It is about your outrageously implausible claim that: "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

Either defend this thesis with a credible source or retract it. You have 24 hours. If you simply re-state it again, or try to change the subject again, or claim personal experience again, your posting privilege will be suspended on the spot.

Last edited by fwsweet on Sat 01 Mar 2008 19:53; edited 6 times in total

Beauty
Experienced User

Joined: 02 Jun 2007
{Posts: 102 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 18:49 Post subject: Re: Whats interesting is....

anonymouse wrote:

jagirl32 wrote:

Beauty wrote:

I agree with Sankofa to an extent. Many Jamaicans will not consider you Jamaican because you were born in America and have grown up in an American way of life. However, you were probably raised with Jamaican traditions. Your ethnicity would probably be Jamaican but not your nationality.

Whats interesting is if if i where someone who was rich and famous jamaicans would be going out of their way to claim me as their own. tiger woods and his mothers country are a good example of this

Beauty wrote:

I doubt that would happen.

You obviously haven't spent time around West Indians. Oh and her nationality is/could be Jamaican too. Jamaica grants citizenship if either parent is a Jamaican citizen.

Anon, I am not sure whether this comment is for me or Jamerican. If it was directed at me then your statement is untrue. How can you make a statement like that? I find that statement very unfair.

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 19:12 Post subject: Re: Whats interesting is....

Beauty wrote:

Anon, I am not sure whether this comment is for me or Jamerican. If it was directed at me then your statement is untrue. How can you make a statement like that? I find that statement very unfair.

You're right - it was meant to be sarcastic but came across as harsh and unfair and I apologise.

MP mulattoprince
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
{Posts: 464 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 19:13 Post subject:

Anonymouse, Anonymouse, wrote: Representatives of 3 West Indian countries: St. Lucia, Barbados & Guyana. One of these fellows is a Afro-Euro mix (technically a mulatto) but he identifies as black. I'll give you a hint: it is not the sun darkened chap in the Mets cap. The man in the purple blue looking shirt with his arm around the darker skinned man in the red shirt he is the one that is Afr-Euro mixed yes or no? Anonymouse, Would a Vanessa Williams, and Terrence Howard been seen as mixed (not called black and be seen as separate from blacks) in the Caribbean? Or would only Vanessa or only Terrence been seen as mixed and the other seen as black.

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 20:25 Post subject:

MP mulattoprince wrote:

Anonymouse,

Anonymouse, wrote: Representatives of 3 West Indian countries: St. Lucia, Barbados & Guyana. One of these fellows is a Afro-Euro mix (technically a mulatto) but he identifies as black. I'll give you a hint: it is not the sun darkened chap in the Mets cap.

The man in the purple blue looking shirt with his arm around the darker skinned man in the red shirt he is the one that is Afr-Euro mixed yes or no?

Anonymouse, Would a Vanessa Williams, and Terrence Howard been seen as mixed (not called black and be seen as separate from blacks) in the Caribbean? Or would only Vanessa or only Terrence been seen as mixed and the other seen as black.

@ MP

The one in the purple-ish shirt is from St. Lucia. His father is about the same complexion as he is and his mother is the same complexion as the mets cap guy (me). And he is the lightest of his 4 siblings. The rest vary from medium brown to dark as me.

The mulatto is the one on the far right

MP mulattoprince wrote:

Anonymouse, Would a Vanessa Williams, and Terrence Howard been seen as mixed (not called black and be seen as separate from blacks) in the Caribbean? Or would only Vanessa or only Terrence been seen as mixed and the other seen as black.

Terrence would almost certainly be black but I'm not so sure about Vanessa. Probably black but the mixed ancestry would be obvious. It definitely would depend on the country though.

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 20:32 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

It has been my experience that in coloured is just a euphemism for black...

With regard to this issue all i have to go on are my personal experiences. I have been called black, I have been called coloured as have my family and friends. Now if you deem these are not sufficient I will retract my claim

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

I do find it interesting that you see this debate as Euro vs Afro while you seem to ignore the sizeable Indo population of the West Indies.

not ad hominem at all. You stated my thesis correctly but I never specify Afro Euro mixes only because my experiences and interactions are not just black on white. That seems to be the American viewpoint on race but not necessarily the West Indian one.

fwsweet wrote:

Regarding your photo: The topic was about the present-day inhabitants of the former BWI. There is no evidence other than your say-so that the people in the photo are present-day inhabitants of the former BWI. In fact, the photo shows clear internal evidence that they are not. Look at the flags.

I live in the DC area and that is a restaurant in Georgetown, Washington DC overlooking the Potomac river so of course there are American flags. Just because these foreign nationals are presently in the US does not negate who they are or where they are from . One chap (in the funky white glasses) is a citizen of St. Lucia and two are Guyanese citizens. The chap in the beige shirt moved to NYC from Georgetown, Guyana last July (when this picture was taken). The other two came to the states for college and stayed. But all of that is irrelevant. And for the record no one ever stated that we were discussing "present day inhabitants of the former BWI". We were talking about West Indians. And by West Indians I mean people from the Anglophone West Indies.

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

One of these fellows is a Afro-Euro mix (technically a mulatto) but he identifies as black.

The dispute is not about how U.S.-born descendants of immigrants from the West Indies self-identity. It is about your outrageously implausible claim that: "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

Either defend this thesis with a credible source or retract it. You have 24 hours. If you simply re-state it again, or try to change the subject again, or claim personal experience again, your posting privilege will be suspended on the spot.

Again the gentleman in question is not a US citizen but a Guyanese citizen, born and raised in Georgetown, Guyana. But as I previously stated that if you deem my personal experiences are not sufficient proof then I will retract my claim.

fwsweet
Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5542 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 20:45 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

Your thesis, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

anonymouse wrote:

You stated my thesis correctly...
But all of that is irrelevant. And for the record no one ever stated that we were discussing "present day inhabitants of the former BWI". We were talking about West Indians. And by West Indians I mean people from the Anglophone West Indies.

No. Your thesis, which you said I stated correctly, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black." Your thesis is not about "people from the Anglophone West Indies." Your thesis was about people "In the English speaking West Indies."

It looks like you want to change it now from people in the former BWI to people whose ancestors came "from the Anglophone West Indies". But it is too late to do that. I see only two choices: You are either incapable of grasping the difference between U.S. residents who descend from immigrants and people actually living in a foreign country (two different populations with demonstrably different attitudes and beliefs about "race"). Or you are deliberately trying to change your thesis again, even though I warned you that I would suspend you on the spot for doing so. Which is it?

MP mulattoprince
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
{Posts: 464 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 20:56 Post subject:

Anonymouse, what about El Debarge how do you feel he would be seen. Do feel he would be classified something else instead of being classified as black? Thank also for answering my question about Vanessa and Terence howard. El Debarge El Debarge

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 21:12 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

Your thesis, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

anonymouse wrote:

I have changed nothing. I repeatedly stated that my examples were neither US born nor were they US residents who descended from West Indian immigrants. And that fact that they currently reside in the states does not change their beliefs and perceptions and attitudes on race.

If a Frenchman moves to the US for college, does he then cease being a Frenchman? Does his belief system, his attitudes regarding race change once he changes his mailing address?

Last edited by anonymouse on Sat 01 Mar 2008 21:23; edited 1 time in total

anonymouse
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
{Posts: 680 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 21:18 Post subject:

MP mulattoprince wrote:

Anonymouse,

what about El Debarge how do you feel he would be seen. Do feel he would be classified something else instead of being classified as black?

Thank also for answering my question about Vanessa and Terence howard.

El Debarge

Now I don't think El would be called black. In Barbados he'd be clear or clear skinned, Guyanese might refer to him as "Partagee" (Portugese). Jamaicans might call him a brownin

Bischoff
Mentor
Mentor

Joined: 20 Jan 2008
{Posts: 395 }

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 21:26 Post subject:

I don't know about the English speaking Caribbean, but after showing El Debarge's picture to a White South African friend of mine, he said Debarge would be considered Coloured looking (South Africa's term for Mixed Race) rather than Black looking. And in my country of Brazil he would be considered Pardo looking (Brazil's term for Mixed Race) rather than Black looking.

fwsweet
Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5542 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Sat 01 Mar 2008 21:33 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

Your thesis, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

anonymouse wrote:

You stated my thesis correctly...
And for the record no one ever stated that we were discussing "present day inhabitants of the former BWI". We were talking about West Indians. And by West Indians I mean people from the Anglophone West Indies.

fwsweet wrote:

Your thesis, which you said I stated correctly, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people ...." Your thesis was not about "people from the Anglophone West Indies." Your thesis was about people "In the English speaking West Indies."

anonymouse wrote:

I have changed nothing.

Have it your way. Anonymouse's posting privilege is hereby suspended until midnight, March 14, 2008.

anonymouse wrote:

If a Frenchman moves to the US for college, does he then cease being a Frenchman?

No, but his expressed attitudes and beliefs about "race" definitely change.

anonymouse wrote:

Does his belief system, his attitudes regarding race change once he changes his mailing address?

Regarding overtly expresed beliefs? Yes indeed. Absolutely. This has been demonstrated many times. How deeply the student's newly acquired U.S. racialist rhetoric (such as the ODR) is truly internalized is harder to show.

Dark-complexioned English-speaking West Indian youngsters are especially vulnerable to adopting U.S. racialism. In contrast to French students (who merge into a White community that mostly ignores the subject) or to students from Latin America (who merge into an active independent and supportive "Hispanic" ethnicity that overtly challenges U.S. racialism), youngsters from the former BWI are not welcomed by either Whites or Hispanics, but are embraced by African Americans who strongly support a monolithic "Black" identity, and reject any in-between identity.

Monica
Mentor
Mentor

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
{Posts: 345 }

Posted: Sun 02 Mar 2008 23:52 Post subject:

odocoileus wrote:

Usually people who encourage you to identify exclusively as part of one group are trying to manipulate you. They want something from you and they figure they can get it by stirring up the deep emotional ties that many of us have to our ethnic backgrounds.

Don't play their game. You seem proud of your Jamaican heritage and you mixed ancestry, so just say that you're Jamaican of mixed heritage.

Or don't talk about it at all.

What do you want, Odocoileus, from this person? How do you know this person is proud of their heritage...

Monica
Mentor
Mentor

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
{Posts: 345 }

Posted: Mon 03 Mar 2008 00:09 Post subject: Re: very interesting

fwsweet wrote:

Your thesis, was, "In the English speaking West Indies most people who come from a mixed black background are referred to as black."

anonymouse wrote:

fwsweet wrote:

anonymouse wrote:

I have changed nothing.

Have it your way. Anonymouse's posting privilege is hereby suspended until midnight, March 14, 2008.

anonymouse wrote:

If a Frenchman moves to the US for college, does he then cease being a Frenchman?

No, but his expressed attitudes and beliefs about "race" definitely change.

anonymouse wrote:

Does his belief system, his attitudes regarding race change once he changes his mailing address?

Frank, what if the "frenchman" or french student is not "white" or are you saying all "french" are accepted as white in America?

Bischoff
Mentor
Mentor

Joined: 20 Jan 2008
{Posts: 395 }

Posted: Mon 03 Mar 2008 00:20 Post subject:

Most players on France's football team would definitely not be accepted as White in the U.S. or even Latin America for that matter. Since the team is made up mostly of Non Spanish speaking West Indians and Sub Saharian Africans with French passports.

femmedecouleur
Mentor
Mentor

Joined: 03 Jun 2005
{Posts: 274 }
Location: California

Posted: Mon 03 Mar 2008 01:11 Post subject:

Bischoff wrote:

Most players on France's football team would definitely not be accepted as White in the U.S. or even Latin America for that matter. Laughing

Since the team is made up mostly of Non Spanish speaking West Indians and Sub Saharian Africans with French passports.

How about honorary whites? Laughing

The accent counts.

Display posts from previous:

	The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Racial Identity and The Multiracial Experience	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2
Page 2 of 2