Blackman 2 when these posters say they think these West African women look Mixed, do they mean they look like they could easily have one Nonblack parent ?
They didn't specify what type of "mixed" but which ever way they meant it,they clearly stated that these women must be mixed (not "real" black african negroids) with something since they don't/didn't fit the stereotypes that people often pass off as 100% fact/truth.
Blackman 2 when these posters say they think these West African women look Mixed, do they mean they look like they could easily have one Nonblack parent ?
They didn't specify what type of "mixed" but which ever way they meant it,they clearly stated that these women must be mixed (not "real" black african negroids) with something since they don't/didn't fit the stereotypes that people often pass off as 100% fact/truth.
Some could be of mixed ancestry - that would depend on what ethnic group they come from. Others could be a representation of their non-mixed ethnic group. Is the CNN woman American?
But don't posters do this only to self identified Black women with phenotypes that actually look like they have recent Non SSA ancestry like Vanessa Williams for example. I don't see too posters in race forums saying that the likes of Naomi Campbell and Gabrielle Union for example have a Mixed Race phenotype.
I've heard a lot of talk of Naomi having mixed features and being of known mixed ancestry. She also talked about it on The Big Idea: Donny Deutsch ... actually he brought it up on a show where she was talking about black models.
Some could be of mixed ancestry - that would depend on what ethnic group they come from. Others could be a representation of their non-mixed ethnic group.
The thing is that there are numerous tribes with their own look.An Igbo Nigerian looks different from a Yoruba Nigerian,they'll look different from a Hausa etc..
Some could be of mixed ancestry - that would depend on what ethnic group they come from. Others could be a representation of their non-mixed ethnic group.
The thing is that there are numerous tribes with their own look.An Igbo Nigerian looks different from a Yoruba Nigerian,they'll look different from a Hausa etc..
[color=blue]That's what I said, depending on what ethnic group each one is from could easily determine if they are of mixed ancestry or if their look is native to their country.
Quote:
Is the CNN woman American? [/color]
No,she's West African from Sierra Leone.
Last edited by gemini072 on Sat 01 Mar 2008 17:16; edited 1 time in total
That's what I said dude, depending on what ethnic group each one is from could easily determine if they are of mixed ancestry or if their look is native to their country.
...all of those tribes are "native" so of course their look(s) are going to be represenative
That's what I said dude, depending on what ethnic group each one is from could easily determine if they are of mixed ancestry or if their look is native to their country.
...all of those tribes are "native" so of course their look(s) are going to be represenative
There are people(Euro) who mix with Africans, many times Africans and their mixed children go back and forth to whatever European and African country they are related to. Many times they marry and have children with other mixed or non mixed Africans,
to name a few 1/2Africans
Sade, Boris Kodjoe, les Nubians:Helene and Celia Faussart, Thandie Newton, Corinne Bailey Rae, model Noemie Lenoir
Sophie Okonedo of "Hotel Rwanda"
That is a beautiful woman, colour or no colour!
She could be West African or East African, depending on ethnic group affiliation (Hausa-Fulani, Fula, etc).
Beautiful elongated neck and very regal in posture!
She closely resembles a friend of mine from St. Vincent
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun 02 Mar 2008 00:44 Post subject:
People fail to realize that there is great phenotypical diversity in Africa. Also, there is far more genetic diversity within Africa than between Africa and other continents, or within other continents.
People fail to realize that there is great phenotypical diversity in Africa. Also, there is far more genetic diversity within Africa than between Africa and other continents, or within other continents.
Right William,
Blackman2 and I are saying that same thing, but I'm saying that ethnic african groups aren't segregated to the point their is no 'other' mixing going on.
First steps in identifying weither or not those ladies are representatives of the ethnic look of their specific countries phenotype is to know where specifically they are from. There are some African countries with recent Euro biracial people, and some countries that have probably no or very little mixing with non-Africans.
If someone told me that a woman with Gweneth's look was Italian even more specifically let's say Sicily I would think that the Italian-American woman in the picture above it would be a represent the phenotype of a good majority of Sicilians or Italians. If there is a woman who looks like Gweneth and she is of Italian ethnic origin I would assume she is of Sicilian and non Italian/Sicilian admixture.
Gwyneth Paltrow's phenotype is not uncommon in North Italy but the more South you go in that country the more rare it becomes to see people as Nordic looking as her.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun 02 Mar 2008 04:14 Post subject:
Ty wrote:
Blackman2 and I are saying that same thing, but I'm saying that ethnic african groups aren't segregated to the point their is no 'other' mixing going on.
First steps in identifying weither or not those ladies are representatives of the ethnic look of their specific countries phenotype is to know where specifically they are from. There are some African countries with recent Euro biracial people, and some countries that have probably no or very little mixing with non-Africans.
If someone told me that a woman with Gweneth's look was Italian even more specifically let's say Sicily I would think that the Italian-American woman in the picture above it would be a represent the phenotype of a good majority of Sicilians or Italians. If there is a woman who looks like Gweneth and she is of Italian ethnic origin I would assume she is of Sicilian and non Italian/Sicilian admixture.
Yes, indeed, you are certainly correct that some sub-Saharan Africans have non-sub-Saharan admixture. In areas closer to the Sahara, there is undoubtedly admixture from North Africans and even Europeans. In East Africa, there is admixture from Semitic types, including Arabs. In areas where Portuguese, Dutch, French, and British settlers came during the Colonial era, there must be certainly be more European admixture than in more isolated regions.
Regarding Italians and Sicilians, yes, certainly, the Italian-American woman in the picture definitely is far more representative of southern Italians and Sicilians than Paltrow. All of the Mediterranean countries tend to have darker populations towards the south than in the north. Even in northern Italy, darker types are still slightly more predominant than light types. I noticed this myself, and Coon supports this. Occasionally, you will find surprisingly light types in southern regions. I know a Sicilian-American girl who has blonde hair and blue eyes, but a lighter Mediterranean skin-tone and facial features typical of southern Italians and Sicilians. I know a Portuguese guy whose family is from southern mainland Portugal (Algarve), and he has red hair, green eyes, very light skin, and freckles -- in fact he looks entirely like an Irishman to me.
With countless generations of mixing going on, it is unlikely anyone is pure anything, anywhere. Therefore, you never know what you will find, in terms of physical characteristics. My English friend who married a Japanese girl and lives in Japan recently told me there is a small percentage of Japanese who look like Mediterranean Europeans in terms of facial features, skin color, hair color, and eye color. They don't look typically Asian. He speculates that they may have more genes that code for a European-type appearance from Ainu ancestors, who were among the aboriginal people of Japan. The Ainu, to be sure, are not of European origin, but likely of Central Asian / Siberian origin, and some (but certainly not all) Central Asians look somewhat European.
I have never seen a Japanese who would be socially eyeballed by most Westerners as looking Mediterranean, and I was born in a city which has the largest Japanese community outside of Japan which is Sao Paulo. But I have seen pics of some high caste Mixed Race Mestizo Filipinos from the upperclass who would be eyeballed as looking Mediterranean/Hispanic by most Westerners rather than being eyeballed as looking East Asian.
Gwyneth Paltrow's phenotype is not uncommon in North Italy but the more South you go in that country the more rare it becomes to see people as Nordic looking as her.
Following Williams assessment, I don't think Gwyneth looks like most Northern Italians. From what I've seen most still look Italian. Even those with natural blond & golden hair coloring, they still look Italian. And of course there are some that don't have obvious Italian Medit. phenotypes
I didn't say Gwyneth looks like most North Italians, I said her look is not uncommon in that region. Not looking uncommon does not automatically mean majority. My brother in law from the Brazilian state of Parana draws his ancestry back to Milan and he has been confused a couple of times for being German/of German descent as well as Polish/of Polish descent because he does not have the typical classic Mediterranean look.
There are people(Euro) who mix with Africans, many times Africans and their mixed children go back and forth to whatever European and African country they are related to. Many times they marry and have children with other mixed or non mixed Africans,
to name a few 1/2Africans
Sade, Boris Kodjoe, les Nubians:Helene and Celia Faussart, Thandie Newton, Corinne Bailey Rae, model Noemie Lenoir
Sophie Okonedo of "Hotel Rwanda"
Im talking about the real native peoples not these types (Kreoles,mesticos,etc..)
William wrote:
Yes, indeed, you are certainly correct that some sub-Saharan Africans have non-sub-Saharan admixture. In areas closer to the Sahara, there is undoubtedly admixture from North Africans and even Europeans. In East Africa, there is admixture from Semitic types, including Arabs. In areas where Portuguese, Dutch, French, and British settlers came during the Colonial era, there must be certainly be more European admixture than in more isolated regions.
With countless generations of mixing going on, it is unlikely anyone is pure anything, anywhere. Therefore, you never know what you will find, in terms of physical characteristics.
IMO,you can't say for example a typical Somali is mixed or not really "black african" because they have some old ancient admx from an Arab.You really can't or shouldn't hold that against them.
Im talking about the real native peoples not these types (Kreoles,mesticos,etc..) ... IMO,you can't say for example a typical Somali is mixed or not really "black african" because they have some old ancient admx from an Arab.You really can't or shouldn't hold that against them.
What are you talking about? Please read The Rules paragraph 3.3.12. It is clear that Gemini and William are speaking of "genetically mixed." It is not clear how you are using the term. Your suggestion that present-day inhabitants of west Africa are not really natives and that those of Somalia are not really mixed makes no sense under any of the three site-standard definitions. Your suggestion that William is "holding something against" a population for recognizing that all populations are mixed is even more confusing. It suggests that having admixture (or not) is somehow laudable or reprehensible, a suggestion that is forbidden outside the two political advocacy forums. Please clarify your two statements quoted above.
What are you talking about? Please read The Rules paragraph 3.3.12. It is clear that Gemini and William are speaking of "genetically mixed." It is not clear how you are using the term. Your suggestion that present-day inhabitants of west Africa are not really natives
I said Kreoles,Mesticos etc..aren't real native tribes
Quote:
and that those of Somalia are not really mixed makes no sense under any of the three site-standard definitions.
I saw your three standard def but as William said..
William wrote:
With countless generations of mixing going on, it is unlikely anyone is pure anything, anywhere. Therefore, you never know what you will find, in terms of physical characteristics
At some point,noone is going to be 100% pure anything.
Somalis might have a small amount of ancient admx but their looks are Native to the Horn w/o admx.Since typical Somalis aren't a hybrid people,they shouldn't be considered in the same sense as their recently mixed Bravanese Somali relatives.
Your suggestion that William is "holding something against" a population for recognizing that all populations are mixed is even more confusing.
I wasn't accusing William of "holding something against" anyone.I was just refering to people in general.
Quote:
It suggests that having admixture (or not) is somehow laudable or reprehensible, a suggestion that is forbidden outside the two political advocacy forums. Please clarify your two statements quoted above.
No,that's not what I meant.Lets say for example..you go up to this typical Somali like Iman who happens to be a proud "pure black african" woman and you tell her that she's not a real pure black african woman because she's mixed.She's going to tell you that she's not mixed but then you tell her that she's is because you can detect some ancient admx in her from way back.She's going to look at you like
now for example if you were going up to this atypical Somali of the Bravanese tribe and told him he wasn't a real black African because he was mixed he probably wouldn't disagree because of the fact he knows he comes from a tribe that formed because of mixing with outsiders.
Quote:
The Bravanese people are a distinct ethnic group within Somalia. As their name suggests, they are found only in the town of Barawa, or Brava, of which they were the sole inhabitants until the 1970s. Local historians variously trace the group's origin to Arabia, India, Persia, Egypt, or Java.[1] They are actually descendants of local groups who have fought over the area, including the Wardaay (Bantu), Tunni, Wajiddu (Jiddu), Ajuran, and Wambalazi (Oromo).[1] They are also believed to be of partial Portuguese descent, following Portugals's occupation of the city from 1506 to 1758 A.D.[1][2]
Following the collapse of the Somali state in the Somali Civil War, the Bravanese have faced persecution and many have fled the town. A famous Bravanese singer, Habibi, created a song about this event and how the Bravanese people have scattered abroad as a consequence of the war.
So in Iman's case as a typical Somali (an old world population),one shouldn't strike down her claim as a pure black african woman just because you can detect some ancient admx from way back whereas the Bravanese man is the result of recent mixing with outside populations.
Last edited by Blackman 2 on Mon 03 Mar 2008 01:15; edited 1 time in total
Even NNDB has Iman listed as Black rather than Multiracial.
http://www.nndb.com/people/980/000043851/
So apparently she does not have enough Non SSA admixture to be considered socially Mixed Race by most of society.
I said Kreoles,Mesticos etc..aren't real native tribes
You are playing with words. Whether someone is a member of a tribe in their own or their tribal leaders' eyes has nothing to do with their DNA. This may not be "real" to you, but who made you the decider? We are talking about "genetically mixed" not "self-identity mixed" (see The Rules 3.3.12.) and you are confusing the two. If this confusion is deliberate, stop now or you will be suspended. If this confusion is accidental, stop now or you will be suspended.
Blackman 2 wrote:
At some point,noone is going to be 100% pure anything. Somalis might have a small amount of ancient admx but their looks are Native to the Horn w/o admx.Since typical Somalis aren't a hybrid people,they shouldn't be considered in the same sense as their recently mixed Bravanese Somali relatives.
Somalis are genetically mixed, just like everyone else on earth. Your claim makes sense only if you assume that there are several original genetically unmixed groups in the world. There are not and there never have been. Everyone is genetically mixed and alsways has been. And it is not a question of 80 percent geneticaly pure and 20 percent genetically mixed. Everybody is 100 percent genetically mixed and always have been.
Blackman 2 wrote:
No,that's not what I meant.Lets say for example..you go up to this typical Somali like Iman who happens to be a proud "pure black african" woman and you tell her that she's not a real pure black african woman because she's mixed.She's going to tell you that she's not mixed but then you tell her that she's is because you can detect some ancient admx in her from way back.She's going to look at you like... now for example if you were going up to this atypical Somali of the Bravanese tribe and told him he wasn't a real black African because he was mixed he probably wouldn't disagree because of the fact he knows he comes from a tribe that formed because of mixing with outsiders.
That is "self-identity" mixed. We are talking about "genetically mixed" not "self-identity mixed" (see The Rules 3.3.12.) and you are confusing the two. If this confusion is deliberate, stop now or you will be suspended. If this confusion is accidental, stop now or you will be suspended.
Blackman 2 wrote:
So in Iman's case as a typical Somali (an old world population),one shouldn't strike down her claim as a pure black african woman just because you can detect some ancient admx from way back whereas the Bravanese man is the result of recent mixing with outside populations.
Are you sugesting that whether a population is "genetically mixed" should be based on intermarriage only after a certain year? In other words, a population that formed 40,000 years ago by genetic mixing between two other populations should be considered genetically pure now, but one that formed in the same way last year should not? Interesting. What year would you propose?
To recap: You are conflating "genetically mixed" with "self-identity" mixed and with "visually mixed" in violation ofThe Rules 3.3.12.) If this confusion is deliberate, stop now or you will be suspended. If this confusion is accidental, stop now or you will be suspended. This is your final warning.
One other recommendation: please reconsider using Wikipedia as a source. Many professional teachers actually take off points for citing from Wikipedia. This is because it is crawling with deliberate falsifications concocted by the idealogues who dominate each article. This site has not yet totally banned the use of Wikideia as a source, although we probably will do so before long. Hence, you are technically not violating The Rules 3.2 by citing Wikipedia. But you are wrecking any credibility that you might have originally had as a new member. If you want to use a Wikipedia paragraph, I suggest that you see if it has a footnoted source. If it does not, avoid it. If it does, then seek and read the footnoted source itself (if it even exists).
Last edited by fwsweet on Mon 03 Mar 2008 13:14; edited 1 time in total
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