I agree with Frank when he says she'd have to be completely delusional to actually believe her utterly white appearanced children look black when a blind man can see that's a complete and utter lie.
However, maybe she thinks of them as "black" in a PURELY cultural/ethnic sense. Because IMHO "racially" speaking, in this post legally enforced ODR society, those kids would be considered, categorized as - and treated as - white/caucasian by "whites", "blacks" and others any and everywhere on this planet.
Especially her sons and her eldest daughter.
And all four of them possibly have lower levels of detectable African ancestry than many populations already considered white. Heck, it might not show up at all for all I know.
If I'm not mistaken, Frank mentioned in the past how a small percentage of African-American Identified people have apparently NO detectable African-Ancestry what so ever.
I responded that I wanted them to see themselves as interracial that is neither black nor white specifically. As they mature, should they want to identify themselves as either or both, that would be their prerogative. My wife differs in this as she takes the common argument that the world will see them literally as black, and consequently we should explain that and tell them they are African-American. Soledad takes that side and shared that her mother, who is black, told her and her siblings the same. She identifies herself as black, defends it adamantly, and raises her interracial children as black. What are your thoughts on this?
I wish I could find a video clip of her interview with this family. As it stands now I'll have to take this man's word for it.
Not-black-black people clip of the week. From left to right, CNN reporter Soledad O'Brien, actor Wentworth Miller, CNN political reporter Suzanne Malveaux, and major league baseball star Grady Sizemore.
In a post one-drop-rule world, The Secret Council of American Negroes tips their hat to our successful, paler brothers and sisters who are in highly visible positions, behaving well, and not afraid to embrace the black along with the 20 other ethnicities flowing within them. These not-black-black-people are to be admired, unlike Nicole Richie, who is on notice to be voted out of the race. We've already sent her to black rehab a few times. She seems to be doing better with the help and money of her father Lionel Richie.
As for our not-black-black-people honorees:
Soledad O'Brien (who is too talented for CNN. We think CBS should fire Couric and get some Soledad in their lives) is Australian, Irish and Cuban and is a member of both the National Association of Black Journalists and the National Association Hispanic Journalists.
Wentworth Miller is a little bit of everything, claiming African-American, English, Italian, German-Jewish and part Cheroke, Russian, French, Dutch and Lebanese as his ancestry (the more the merrier I suppose). While he plays "el hombre blanco" on "Prison Break," he openly claims his half-black heritage and was featured in the film adaptation of "The Human Stain." He was good. The rest of the film, not so good.
Suzanne Malveaux comes from the black elite, a descendant of educated and successful Louisiana coloreds. She is of African, Spanish and French descent. At CNN she's very hard-hitting and smart. She has no tolerance for filler or inane banter.
Grady Sizemore was one of the few baseball players who wore Jackie Robinson's number last year during the celebration of baseball breaking the color barrier. Many people were surprised to learn that Grady's "Jew-fro" was really an "afro." His background is less complex, his mother is white and his father is black.
Ok, Maybe she does go back in forth on the subject, because we had a discussion about this a while back where she said she was raising her kids as multiracial. Maybe she is one of those who sees themselves as 100% Black & 100% Cuban 100% this and that...even though she doesn't seem to factor in her Irish part much. I think this discussion about what she believes is confusing. Maybe if we really need to know what she believes we should post these interviews by date.year.
I wonder is she had that 100%Black 100%Irish 100%Cuban identity how would people take her. It can actually be confusing but it is just as sensible. Kimora Lee see herself like that too 100%Black 100%Asian.
I believe that Soledad for career purposes has made/allowed to be made... herself look a bit more acceptable (her perception or someone elses) Soledad has straight out kinky hair. That is something that would automatically give away a negro connection. I've seen a few photos of her in her younger years where you would identify her as obviously 'black' or hispanic. Prince has that about him at times. especially during his 1986-1988 years
http://www.aaregistry.com/detail.php?id=2619
Friday
July 4th 2008
O'Brian says that she checks three boxes on the U.S. Census form: African-American, Hispanic and Caucasian. "I define myself as multiracial," she says. "Definitions are important to other people. They make no difference to my life." She is a member of the National Association of Black Journalists, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and is on the board of directors of the Harlem School for the Arts. She is a graduate of Harvard University and lives in Manhattan with her husband, Brad Raymond, and their daughters, Sofia and Cecelia, and twin boys, Charlie Raymond and Jackson Raymond.
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 02:33 Post subject: Passing for Black
gemini072 wrote:
zsana wrote:
I agree with Frank when he says she'd have to be completely delusional to actually believe her utterly white appearanced children look black when a blind man can see that's a complete and utter lie.
However, maybe she thinks of them as "black" in a PURELY cultural/ethnic sense. Because IMHO "racially" speaking, in this post legally enforced ODR society, those kids would be considered, categorized as - and treated as - white/caucasian by "whites", "blacks" and others any and
everywhere on this planet.
Where would Soledad's kids be most comfortable - around white Americans of their own class or around blacks of any class? I think we can guess the answer, black grandmother or not.
Especially her sons and her eldest daughter.
And all four of them possibly have lower levels of detectable African ancestry than many populations already considered white. Heck, it might not show up at all for all I know.
If I'm not mistaken, Frank mentioned in the past how a small percentage of African-American Identified people have apparently NO detectable African-Ancestry what so ever.
I responded that I wanted them to see themselves as interracial that is neither black nor white specifically. As they mature, should they want to identify themselves as either or both, that would be their prerogative. My wife differs in this as she takes the common argument that the world will see them literally as black, and consequently we should explain that and tell them they are African-American. Soledad takes that side and shared that her mother, who is black, told her and her siblings the same. She identifies herself as black, defends it adamantly, and raises her interracial children as black. What are your thoughts on this?
I think that a white parent who would allow anyone to force a black identity on his/her kids - eppecially if they are of European phenotype - is a damn coward and the black-identified parent is guilty of emotional child abuse.
I wish I could find a video clip of her interview with this family. As it stands now I'll have to take this man's word for it.
Not-black-black people clip of the week. From left to right, CNN reporter Soledad O'Brien, actor Wentworth Miller, CNN political reporter Suzanne Malveaux, and major league baseball star Grady Sizemore.
In a post one-drop-rule world, The Secret Council of American Negroes tips their hat to our successful, paler brothers and sisters who are in highly visible positions, behaving well, and not afraid to embrace the black along with the 20 other ethnicities flowing within them. These not-black-black-people are to be admired, unlike Nicole Richie, who is on notice to be voted out of the race. We've already sent her to black rehab a few times. She seems to be doing better with the help and money of her father Lionel Richie.
Does anyone else see the insult in the above quote? The idiotic embrace of the "one drop" myth apparently makes many blacks crazy enough to think that anyone "tarbrushed" with their "tainted" blood is the collective property of their "race" with no right to determine their own identity.
As for our not-black-black-people honorees:
Soledad O'Brien (who is too talented for CNN. We think CBS should fire Couric and get some Soledad in their lives) is Australian, Irish and Cuban and is a member of both the National Association of Black Journalists and the National Association Hispanic Journalists.
Wentworth Miller is a little bit of everything, claiming African-American, English, Italian, German-Jewish and part Cheroke, Russian, French, Dutch and Lebanese as his ancestry (the more the merrier I suppose). While he plays "el hombre blanco" on "Prison Break," he openly claims his half-black heritage and was featured in the film adaptation of "The Human Stain." He was good. The rest of the film, not so good.
Suzanne Malveaux comes from the black elite, a descendant of educated and successful Louisiana coloreds. She is of African, Spanish and French descent. At CNN she's very hard-hitting and smart. She has no tolerance for filler or inane banter.
Grady Sizemore was one of the few baseball players who wore Jackie Robinson's number last year during the celebration of baseball breaking the color barrier. Many people were surprised to learn that Grady's "Jew-fro" was really an "afro." His background is less complex, his mother is white and his father is black.
Ok, Maybe she does go back in forth on the subject, because we had a discussion about this a while back where she said she was raising her kids as multiracial. Maybe she is one of those who sees themselves as 100% Black & 100% Cuban 100% this and that...even though she doesn't seem to factor in her Irish part much. I think this discussion about what she believes is confusing. Maybe if we really need to know what she believes we should post these interviews by date.year.
I wonder is she had that 100%Black 100%Irish 100%Cuban identity how would people take her. It can actually be confusing but it is just as sensible. Kimora Lee see herself like that too 100%Black 100%Asian.
I believe that Soledad for career purposes has made/allowed to be made... herself look a bit more acceptable (her perception or someone elses) Soledad has straight out kinky hair. That is something that would automatically give away a negro connection. I've seen a few photos of her in her younger years where you would identify her as obviously 'black' or hispanic. Prince has that about him at times. especially during his 1986-1988 years
http://www.aaregistry.com/detail.php?id=2619
Friday
July 4th 2008
O'Brian says that she checks three boxes on the U.S. Census form: African-American, Hispanic and Caucasian. "I define myself as multiracial," she says. "Definitions are important to other people. They make no difference to my life." She is a member of the National Association of Black Journalists, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and is on the board of directors of the Harlem School for the Arts. She is a graduate of Harvard University and lives in Manhattan with her husband, Brad Raymond, and their daughters, Sofia and Cecelia, and twin boys, Charlie Raymond and Jackson Raymond.
Parenting is never easy, and having children that are multi-cultural adds more concern in terms of good child rearing. It sounds like Soledad is taking a page from her mother's handbook. Hopefully as time progresses and society changes she will feel confident in adding in a couple chapters of her own.
Where would Soledad's children feel most comfortable? You would be surprised. Soledad lives in NYC, look at playgrounds, kids at the mall, even arranged play dates. Kids get along with who they get along with, having fun and being cool is more of a preoccupation than who has my racial phenotype.
If Soledad's kids are in a private school in NYC with students who come from a certain financial background, there is a good chance they are going to be, and I am just guessing here, at least 30% that may be minorities and there will be within the 70% caucasian some ethnic Caucasians.
Her children being raised in NYC exposes them to cultures and subcultures that many small mono race towns can't provide. Her kids, if they are in NYC long enough, will be like most of us. Having friends of many different races and cultures. And we can't predict based on phenotype who a child will or will not get along with.
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 14:46 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
Powell wrote:
Where would Soledad's kids be most comfortable - around white Americans of their own class or around blacks of any class? I think we can guess the answer, black grandmother or not.
What kind of question is this? Sounds just as inane as this one:
Where would you guess Soledad's kids be most comfortable - Around black Americans of their own class or around whites of any class? I think we can guess the answer, white grandfather or not.
Neither you nor I nor have any idea how these children are being raised or who they are surrounded with. But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
Powell wrote:
I think that a white parent who would allow anyone to force a black identity on his/her kids - eppecially if they are of European phenotype - is a damn coward and the black-identified parent is guilty of emotional child abuse.
And I think anyone that would make snap judgment calls regarding child rearing have 0% interest in the welfare of the children and 100% interest in promoting their own personal agenda. There is no space for personal agendas in good parenting
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 14:54 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
anonymouse wrote:
But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
We are drifting from the point. The point was not how to choose the "best" identity for the children.
The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that "White people" will never accept them as White and that "White people" will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry.
This is quite simply a lie. There is no other way to put it. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 15:06 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
We are drifting from the point. The point was not how to choose the "best" identity for the children.
The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that "White people" will never accept them as White and that "White people" will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry.
This is quite simply a lie. There is no other way to put it. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
Soledad's white husband must be a real wimp to allow this. He must know better. Too many white liberals take the "blacks know best on race and I shouldn't think for myself" approach.
Posted: Sun 06 Jul 2008 01:08 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
Powell wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
We are drifting from the point. The point was not how to choose the "best" identity for the children.
The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that "White people" will never accept them as White and that "White people" will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry.
This is quite simply a lie. There is no other way to put it. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
Soledad's white husband must be a real wimp to allow this. He must know better. Too many white liberals take the "blacks know best on race and I shouldn't think for myself" approach.
I wonder how weird the whole thing is to him, even the white thing, being an Australian Irishman. I've studied a bit about 'ethnic' and "racial" ideas in Australia... but I don't know how he may view whiteness or American whiteness...
Posted: Sun 06 Jul 2008 15:26 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
gemini072 wrote:
Powell wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
We are drifting from the point. The point was not how to choose the "best" identity for the children.
The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that "White people" will never accept them as White and that "White people" will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry.
This is quite simply a lie. There is no other way to put it. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
Soledad's white husband must be a real wimp to allow this. He must know better. Too many white liberals take the "blacks know best on race and I shouldn't think for myself" approach.
I wonder how weird the whole thing is to him, even the white thing, being an Australian Irishman. I've studied a bit about 'ethnic' and "racial" ideas in Australia... but I don't know how he may view whiteness or American whiteness...
Well, when you consider these girls identified as Black/Indigenous in Australia...
Soledad has right to identify as she wants and to raise her children as she wants, but her husband must be cuckolded if he doesn't have any imput on how they identify. And her theory that they will only be seen as Black is utterly ridiculous.
like I said, "She Needs To Quit." [thanx 4 translating, Powell.]
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 444 } Location: Ξle-de-France
Posted: Mon 07 Jul 2008 10:49 Post subject:
Quote:
On an unrelated note, did anyone else immediately realize that both of the photos pictured below were of the same man? At first glance I assumed the pic on the left was of a Creole/Latino/Biracial/light-skinned black self-identified man. In other words I could see that he had some degree of African ancestry. But in the second photo... Well, I was wondering why this white man would have this gentleman who obviously wasn't him featured on his blog.
It's amazing what a tan does. It totally changes ones perception. The picture with the three of them together is taken in the Wintertime and I swear they all look like different variations of white to me in that pic. It certainly doesn't look like Brad is pictured with discriminated against "minorities" in the typical sense.
But that's just what I'm perceiving. Maybe someone else see's something totally different...
Anyway, Lancelot A. Smith is also proudly black identified.
I don't think they are the same man. Its funny because they have similar facial features, but look at the hair line. The guy in the big picture has a seriously receeding hairline with very noticiable temporal recessions, where the guy running's hair line is straight across. Also, If you click through to the main page of the blog there is the following picture:
The name of this picture is LANCEPIX01.jpg, which suggest to me that this (and the picture of the running guy on the left) are pictures of the author.
My conclusion is that he has a picture of Soledad, her husband, and a random guy on his blog. But I could be wrong.
With respect to Soledad's self identity, I think that right or wrong her parents bought into the predominant line of thinking in the US at the time. If her parents had lived in Cuba instead of the US she would almost certainly have been instructed differently. With her self-identiy and her children's identity at this point, I think she is trying to be all things to all people. Thats how to get the most air time and attention, and in her line of work, thats what its all about. Soledad looks like a friend of mine who is 3/4 castillian and 1/4 lebanese.
Thanks for possibly clearing that up MisterLawyer.
I think it has something to do with the "power of suggestion" I guess. I was "primed" to "see"/consider that the blog owner may have had invisible African-Ancestry and was merely tanned in the running pic because the topic was already about Soledad - who could pass as a variety of non African-American ethnicities - yet identifies as black.
"Guilt (But not in a negative sense. People can call themselves what they want, BUT they should always consider what's most likely best for their children) by association" I suppose... I already knew that her husband was white and what he looked like. So, I immediately focused on the other man in the pic. I assumed that since she's a non African appearanced black identified person, she probably knows/associates with others just like her.
Which may or may not be true of course. I just think many people still believe that birds of a feather... When it comes to attitudes at the very least.
PLUS, I personally know that people can indeed look different in the Summertime vs. the Wintertime. My sons are prime examples. They never physically look black (which is all the more apparent when in the presence of undeniably black people) BUT in the summer when they have a bit more color, Hispanics ESPECIALLY (the Marc Anthony & J. Lo types) get real curious. In the winter time, it's everyone and when we're in Europe in the Winter, it's specifically the Turks, some French, and some Italians.
I must add - it's specifically when people make the connection that their my kids - that they get more "noticed". Not in a negative or rude way, I just sense sometimes people putting two and two together in their mind.lol
My husband doesn't have this experience when he's alone with them.
I know I may have gotten off topic. Just explaining why I honestly thought those two men could be the same.
Me too. I missed the part when she said that she was raising her kids to be Black.
Can someone post the direct quote? Otherwise I think we are going off of what was stated in a blog.
It seems to me that Soledad has the fluid identity that many mixed people have. I wonder why such a multifaceted construct like personal identity would require fixation? Why is a "healthy" identity stable (i.e, one thing, all the time) and an "unhealthy" one fluid (i.e., changes situationally)? I think that the only reason people believe this is because U.S. society has been hell-bent on fixating race and races. People wouldn't think anything of it if she said she was Cuban one day and Irish the next if she was in fact had both ethnic heritages.
Me too. I missed the part when she said that she was raising her kids to be Black.
Can someone post the direct quote? Otherwise I think we are going off of what was stated in a blog.
It seems to me that Soledad has the fluid identity that many mixed people have. I wonder why such a multifaceted construct like personal identity would require fixation? Why is a "healthy" identity stable (i.e, one thing, all the time) and an "unhealthy" one fluid (i.e., changes situationally)? I think that the only reason people believe this is because U.S. society has been hell-bent on fixating race and races. People wouldn't think anything of it if she said she was Cuban one day and Irish the next if she was in fact had both ethnic heritages.
I agree Sagascend,
There is no one way to be multiracial. And we multiracials have to be careful about crucifying anyone(multiracial, mixed, biracial) who doesn't fit into a box we may(others may) create.
Some biracial people say they are a totally new person(ethnicity-race) some say they are 50% Japanese 50% of Mohawk, some say they are just human, some say they are 100% Black 100%Italian. These are just examples that I have heard used, I fall somewhere in there myself.
There is no one way to be multiracial. And we multiracials have to be careful about crucifying anyone(multiracial, mixed, biracial) who doesn't fit into a box we may(others may) create.
The point was not whether she raises her children as Black, nor how many ways there are to be mixed. The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that White people will never accept them as White and that White people will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry. This is quite simply a lie. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
There is no one way to be multiracial. And we multiracials have to be careful about crucifying anyone(multiracial, mixed, biracial) who doesn't fit into a box we may(others may) create.
The point was not whether she raises her children as Black, nor how many ways there are to be mixed. The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that White people will never accept them as White and that White people will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry. This is quite simply a lie. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
My first point is, I wasn't responding to that point. And are you saying this is Soledad? Because she didn't say it, unless I'm mistaken. It's the woman from the link Zsana posted that Soledad did an interview with.
Now if it is this interracial couple with the biracial kids, their blackness isn't too invisible.
I've responded to Felicia a few posts earlier saying, I wish when people posts these things on her that we can date them. There is a post in Popular People on her saying very different things. I was trying to find out when she actually said that versus something she said more recently about raising her children as multiracial as well as a post she made about changing her ideas from her upbringing on identity. My 2nd point is I think everyone has mixed up Soledads story with the other story OUR LIFE IN BLACK & WHITE which is where the woman is talking about the world will see their children as black etc etc etc THAT is not Soledad OBrien. So it seems what everyone is saying about Soledad is wrong
Quote:
Hi everyone, need your input here. I have an ongoing discussion with my wife that was recently joined by CNN correspondent Soledad OBrien. Obviously, I am a white man married to a black woman with two small interracial children. We are part of a CNN documentary scheduled to be aired in the spring of 08 titled Race in America. In the interview conducted by Soledad, the question was asked as to how we would raise our children in relation to racial identity. I responded that I wanted them to see themselves as interracial that is neither black nor white specifically. As they mature, should they want to identify themselves as either or both, that would be their prerogative. My wife differs in this as she takes the common argument that the world will see them literally as black, and consequently we should explain that and tell them they are African-American. Soledad takes that side and shared that her mother, who is black, told her and her siblings the same. She identifies herself as black, defends it adamantly, and raises her interracial children as black. What are your thoughts on this?
Last edited by gemini072 on Wed 09 Jul 2008 05:16; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 05:11 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
Powell wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
But suggesting they would be more comfortable around whites than blacks based on their phenotype IMHO is quite an absurd idea.
We are drifting from the point. The point was not how to choose the "best" identity for the children.
The point was that according to the interview, she is teaching her children that "White people" will never accept them as White and that "White people" will always subject them to to bigotry and prejudice due to their invisible African ancestry.
This is quite simply a lie. There is no other way to put it. It is a lie told by a mother to her own children with the effect of instilling in them fear and hatred of the very society in which they will live.
Soledad's white husband must be a real wimp to allow this. He must know better. Too many white liberals take the "blacks know best on race and I shouldn't think for myself" approach.
Soledad's did not say that, it was from the link Zsana wrote, not rebuking her. But this is one reason multiple topics/posts/links in a specific subject don't work. Everyone is saying Soledad said that it it's not what she said.
Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 11:46 Post subject: Re: Passing for Black
gemini072 wrote:
Soledad's did not say that.
Well, if it was not Soledad then I retract what I said. If the most recent photo above is of the woman who said this and her family, then she may well be right. Most Americans probably will see her kids as Black (at least unless they learn to cultivate a Spanish accent). If so, then it will be up to the kids to decide whether to adopt a dual heritage in defiance of U.S. society.
My wife differs in this as she takes the common argument that the world will see them literally as black, and consequently we should explain that and tell them they are African-American. Soledad takes that side and shared that her mother, who is black, told her and her siblings the same. She identifies herself as black, defends it adamantly, and raises her interracial children as black. What are your thoughts on this?
Yeah, she does defend her identity as Black adamantly and she may raise her kids as Black, but you are right, it is the wife who has the idea they will only be seen as Black. So we do not know if Soledad says that of her own children.
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