'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

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'Racist' Lima restaurant closed
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Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 23:29 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

]
Fully aware of LUNDU's Monica Carillo.

I would have to ask her where she was that she was receiving the insults and by whom and on a daily basis. Or if they were cat calls from men whom are ride to women in general that also mentioned her ethnicity as well. When I talk to Mónica, I will go into it deeper.

She specifically said the remarks that she gets are racist in nature. The forum dealt with issues that AfroLatinos face and that is the context within which such remarks were made.

No, I got an email from her camp. She was called names AS A KID, IN SCHOOL. Sorry bub. School children are some of the meanest people in the world.

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

[ if it were purely on race, I would question if all people of indigenous look were discriminated as well. Including the ones with money.
http://www.fdralumni.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=553&page=5
Those are senior pictures from my old school. Those are rich kids.

The restaurant was closed because of race. Clearly a case was made and the evidence was that this was the case. Given that the restaurant wasnt closed because of class we can assume that people who Indigenous or visible SSAfrican features have a tougher time being treated with respect.

Considering there was no court case and the restaurant is appealing. I'll wait for the verdict. Furthermore, as my dark skinned Trini friend stated:

trinidarkie wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

trinidarkie wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

You are right. It is still San Isidro. Hey did you ever experience discrimination when you went to places in Lima?

Nope, ppl were really nice to me in the restaurants, malls etc. I actually felt that many went out of their way because of the language barrier etc and I have been to other countries where they do not even cut you a break if you cannot speak their language. The guys in my office were tremendous also. One day I got in and they were all excited and jumping out of their seats. As soon as I sat down they all gathered around to show me that there was an article in the travel section of the newspaper on Trinidad. They stood and translated the entire thing for me...a whole page. I was quite touched.

That is why I suspect racism/colorism is enmeshed with classism as well. Also, I believe "prettiness" may also a discriminating factor in many of these places. The Mestizo population absorbed a lot of the Amerindian genes. In fact, I would say they took the creme of the crop. I used to get into debates with people who would claim certain looks as European because it "couldn't be "Indio." I suspect other than malnutrition of the poor, the indigenous population has been prospected over the centuries for their best looking men and women who have had their genes join the mainstream. Same with African features enmeshed in many Mestizos. I think people with these types of indigenous features get discriminated a lot less than the guy that has the more marked long nose, etc. Both peoples have indigenous features, but one phenotype is appreciated a lot more. Same with people with African features. I believe many, and I suspect you may be the case as well, who have features which are within the parameters of what is considered "good looking" in Peruvian society, encounter discrimination a lot less regardless of ethnic look. But if you happen to look kinda ugly and you also have indigenous, African or any other non-mainstream look, some people can be harsh and I do believe many clubs may discriminate on that basis. Equating ethnic looks and "less than pretty face" (based on stereotypes) with lower class. This of course would be offset by the way one carries themselves and is of known/perceived higher social class. This is just a theory of mine.

This type of classism has and continues to occur in Trinidad in some of our nightclubs.

caribj wrote:

fwsweet wrote:

'Racist' Lima restaurant closed
By Dan Collyns
BBC News, Lima
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6281346.stm

A popular restaurant in Lima has been temporarily closed down after several complaints that people with darker skin were refused entry.
.

Salsassin please review this. Note that it wasnt just one person and apparently similar complainst werent made by people with more caucasoid features.

This was one of the complainants for racial bias.

caribj
Suspended

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
{Posts: 612 }

Posted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 23:49 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

[quote="Salsassin"]

caribj wrote:

camp. She was called names AS A KID, IN SCHOOL. Sorry bub. School children are some of the meanest people in the world.

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

Considering there was no court case and the restaurant is appealing. I'll wait for the verdict. Furthermore, as my dark skinned Trini friend stated:

trinidarkie wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

trinidarkie wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

You are right. It is still San Isidro. Hey did you ever experience discrimination when you went to places in Lima?

This type of classism has and continues to occur in Trinidad in some of our nightclubs.

caribj wrote:

fwsweet wrote:

Salsassin please review this. Note that it wasnt just one person and apparently similar complainst werent made by people with more caucasoid features.

This was one of the complainants for racial bias.

I can only report what Monica said as part of her presentation. She said she is called names walking down the street and was talking about the problem sthat AfroPeruvians endure. I guess, based on what you imply, she was lying about conditions in Peru then. In any case I wonder if "ugly" whites also get refused service.

The racism that occured in some Trini nightclubs is RACISM. I have heard stories, none of whom were by poor blacks, and some were dark skinned Indians, who were told that its "members only", though their light skinned friends got in. But based on what appeared in Trini papers several years back they call it as it is. RACISM. In fact a Trinidadian cousin (light skinned) once went to a club with a dark skinned man who was a professional. She suddenly realized he didnt follow her into the club and low and behold found him arguing with the bouncer who found some reason why he couldnt come in.

When this problem is raised some say class because this is an excuse. Given the very different speech patterns of the middle class and working class people know who is who and so I dont buy that one. Racism pure and simple. It used to be the same in Bdos where I could have (as a nonBajan) get into a club while a local black Bajan couldnt. When asked why they peddled the same class nonsense.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 00:10 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

caribj wrote:

Probably not unless they look like mountain whites. Like I said, I would have to know what she implyed exactly. They could have been racist sexual calls.

Quote:

The racism that occured in some Trini nightclubs is RACISM. I have heard stories, none of whom were by poor blacks, and some were dark skinned Indians, who were told that its "members only", though their light skinned friends got in. But based on what appeared in Trini papers several years back they call it as it is. RACISM. In fact a Trinidadian cousin (light skinned) once went to a club with a dark skinned man who was a professional. She suddenly realized he didnt follow her into the club and low and behold found him arguing with the bouncer who found some reason why he couldnt come in.

Yes, that is called colorism. But again, I have shown that darker people get in. So it is more a stereotype and a certain sub group within the ethnicity that get discriminated more. A Negro fino would probably not incur in the same problems as a Sambo.

Quote:

When this problem is raised some say class because this is an excuse. Given the very different speech patterns of the middle class and working class people know who is who and so I dont buy that one. Racism pure and simple. It used to be the same in Bdos where I could have (as a nonBajan) get into a club while a local black Bajan couldnt. When asked why they peddled the same class nonsense.

And yet you got in. hmmmmm

caribj
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
{Posts: 612 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 18:47 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

Salsassin wrote:

Yes I got in because I am not Bajan. I said my piece about their racism, told them that their behavior is primitive and I left waving my US $ that I was planning to spend but didnt. They were very embarrassed.

White Bajans know full well who is "respectable" and who isnt just by looking at dress, mannerisms and speech patterns. And this is regardless as to whether they use a Eurocentric version of who is good looking or not. Some very African looking people have loads of power in these countries. To determine social status you are better off looking and the criteria outlined above and not phenotype.

So if a dark skinned person is kept out its because they dont want them there. Color not class. I was let in because I was a tourist and therefore not part of that undeclared race war that existed in Barbados in the 1980s between competing black and white elites, which white elites say they lost by the way.

In any case Trinidad has had a BLACK govt for 45 of the last 50 years. It has a large BLACK professional, executive and administrative class and its judiciary is heavily black. So much so that East Indians and others (even some whites) wail about being persecuted by blacks. Trinidad isnt like Latin America where some one can tell me that they can assume poverty merely by looking at skin color. In fact these clubs got into trouble in BOTH Bdos and Tdad because they illtreated a child of a Mr Big who happened to be dark skinned. And they know that many Mr Bigs who are black exist.

I use black in the manner that is used in the Anglophone Caribbean. Don Cheadle and Denzil Washington are black. Vanessa Williams isnt.

We arent talking about a Peru or a Brazil where successful dark skinned blacks (sambos as you call them, hmmmmmm) are a huge exception and very hard to find.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 20:20 Post subject:

They are also a minority in the population and have been historically poor. So it really doesn't mean that much they are discriminated like most of the poor are. You would have to show that rich people of indigenous and Afro decent that are dark skinned are discriminated. It is more complicated than that. Sorry

caribj
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
{Posts: 612 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 20:50 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

You would have to show that rich people of indigenous and Afro decent that are dark skinned are discriminated. It is more complicated than that. Sorry

Is Peru different from Brazil? According to your friend Monica if it is its because "blacks" there are more organized and are beginning to enjoy more socio-economic success than is the case in Peru. BUT in Brazil we have seen that the more educated a"black" is the more they lag behind their white peers. So we can say then that even with access to education they still suffer because of their phenotype. I am talking about Afro descent here.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 20:53 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

You would have to show that rich people of indigenous and Afro decent that are dark skinned are discriminated. It is more complicated than that. Sorry

Two different monsters. Some similarities some differences. For example Peru actually has the earliest records of an Afrodescent person going to a in Latin America.

caribj
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
{Posts: 612 }

Posted: Thu 12 Jul 2007 21:11 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

You would have to show that rich people of indigenous and Afro decent that are dark skinned are discriminated. It is more complicated than that. Sorry

Two different monsters. Some similarities some differences. For example Peru actually has the earliest records of an Afrodescent person going to a in Latin America.

What are the differences? How can Peru have been the first ahead of Panama, Colombia, Santo Domingo and Cuba which were colonized earlier?

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Fri 13 Jul 2007 13:21 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

What are the differences? How can Peru have been the first ahead of Panama, Colombia, Santo Domingo and Cuba which were colonized earlier?

Colonized earlier, but no records of a Black identified person attending a University.

caribj
Suspended

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
{Posts: 612 }

Posted: Fri 13 Jul 2007 18:24 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

caribj wrote:

What are the differences? How can Peru have been the first ahead of Panama, Colombia, Santo Domingo and Cuba which were colonized earlier?

Colonized earlier, but no records of a Black identified person attending a University.

The word university didnt make it to your earlier post.

Anyway what is the CURRENT situation of blacks attending university?

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Fri 13 Jul 2007 19:38 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

caribj wrote:

What are the differences? How can Peru have been the first ahead of Panama, Colombia, Santo Domingo and Cuba which were colonized earlier?

Colonized earlier, but no records of a Black identified person attending a University.

The word university didnt make it to your earlier post.

Anyway what is the CURRENT situation of blacks attending university?

Not sure. Looking into it.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 15:06 Post subject: Re: 'Racist' Lima restaurant closed

caribj wrote:

fwsweet wrote:

Salsassin please review this. Note that it wasnt just one person and apparently similar complainst werent made by people with more caucasoid features.

I guess when CarbJ comes back I'll show you guys the faces of those discriminated.

Jewcepticon
New User

Joined: 16 Sep 2008
{Posts: 10 }

Posted: Thu 18 Sep 2008 14:59 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

caribj wrote:

Salsassin clearly there was a problem and if in NYC poor folks dont try to eat at wealthy restaurants because they cant afford it I very much doubt in Peru where the poorer are even poorer they would. This clearly appears to be a case of mistaken identity where some one who was thought to be poor because of their phenotype wasnt and used their connections to ensure that the restaurant was punished.

clearly you are assuming, as you obviously haven't been there. I went to eat in many nice restaurants with poor friends. It is called saving up. Or rubbing shoulders, or what not.

Quote:

The point is that Peruvians of SSAfrican and maybe Indigenous ancestry are sometimes mistreated because they are thought to be socially undesirable. The closer they are to middle class as against wealth its probable that they are more likely to encounter this

Actually, people of Indigenous ancestry get as much discrimination aspeople of Afrodescent in Peru. But once they are established with the mannerisms and other cues of the upper classes, people can tell.

http://expecon.gsu.edu/workingpapers/GSU_EXCEN_working_paper_2007_01.pdf

Quote:

In Latin America upward mobility doesnt seem to insulate some one from being subjected to discrimination by color. Clearly then we have a problem of classism AND COLORISM, that isnt eradicated by virture of upward mobility. This suggests that an attack on colorism is as essential as classism as was plainly the case here. The restaurant wasnt closed because it refused poor people. It was closed because it refused people of color. The remedy emphasized discrimination based on appearance which indicates possible ancestry. NOT discrimination based solely on class.

Actually, colorism and phenotype discrimination. The people discriminated were indigenous looking and their complexion was probably about the same as that of many of the restauranteurs. But their features weren't.

Quote:

The point Salsassin is that a visiting black tourist in LatAm appears to more likely to be faced with the assumption that he must be poor because of his phenotype, unless he takes pains to stress his foreigness (like speaking English), than one visiting New York City. I can assure that this was my experience especially in Brazil and Venezuela, and yet in 25 years I have never had this problem in NYC.

NYC has a lot more immigrants from all over the world such a wealth comes in every look. Not so with many Latin American places so the comparison is not valid.

Quote:

BTW if some one went to college its likely that they are middle class and not poor.

Again, that shows you do not know the University system in South America. Poor people can and do go to college if they get the higher scores on the entrance tests.

Quote:

Do people go to restaurants where they cant afford the food? Surely a restaurant catering to the wealthy is way above the means of a poor person in Peru I would think? I know this is the case in NYC.

This is not NYC. And yes, it is expensive. But again, while they definitely were not empoverished people, doesn't mean they were rich or even middle class. Not saying they weren't but don't assume.
$20 dollars is the minimum there.

By the way, the people who were discriminated in this opportunity were Indigenous/Mestizo.

Look at this video of one of the victims of racial discrimination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fcueuny7s

discrimination my ta7at, that guy was obiously drunk, and cmon look at him hes as white as the owner of the club, he makes me look look Saudi. & did you see the pictures of people at the club?

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