Posted: Mon 27 Oct 2008 20:28 Post subject: Proposed rules change
I propose that ad hominem insults be immediately deleted by the moderator. If you want a scholarly site with a good reputation, the continued presence of these ignorant remarks are counterproductive to the mission of the site.
Helena21 wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
I also noticed that Suzette Charles (the biracial second "black" Miss America) dropped her father's Italian name - DeGaetano. I'm betting that they feared pressure from blacks to get rid of their "white" names ("White" being defined as those names uncommon in the Old South and therefore very uncommon among "Negroes").
Why the quotes for black? She self identifies as a black woman. Who are you to say otherwise? Additionally she is from Joisey :lol:, a place most would say is far removed from the Old South.
I never knew there were "black" surnames as well as "white" ones because for every AA I have met with a particular surname, I have met a white with the same one.
I agree with you completely. Suzette Charles identifies as Black, and everyone(including you, Powell) should respect that. She has every right to do so.
Anonymouse, don't mind Powell. Half the time, she talks out of her ass. :roll:
October 8, 2008
"I Don't Mess With Black Men"
Palin's Racist Remark
By LINN WASHINGTON, Jr.
It’s that character thing, Sarah Palin declares.
The GOP’s VP candidate defends her increasingly strident verbal assaults on Barack Obama as legitimate questions about the Democratic presidential candidate.
Well, for Charles Greg Royal, it’s that character thing also.
This internationally renowned jazz musician recently utilized the National Press Club in Washington, DC to recount a flirtatious encounter he had in Alaska with a woman who identified herself as Sarah Heath.
Royal said this encounter ended after a racist remark by the woman now known as Gov Sarah Palin.
Making that racist remark, Royal contends, coupled with Gov Palin’s disengaged relations with racial minorities in Alaska speaks volumes about her character.
"When you view what happened with me in the context with what is happening with blacks and other minorities in Alaska under Gov Palin, it is clear that what I encountered was not a fluke. It shows her character," Royal said during an interview hours after that press conference in DC where he directs the American Youth Symphony, Inc.
While that racist remark reflects character, Royal said, the flirtation by a woman who did not reveal at the time that she was both married and pregnant speaks to "mortality and fidelity."
Royal said that in 1990, when performing with the Duke Ellington Band in Anchorage, the trombonist struck up a conversation with a woman at a fast food restaurant who initially identified herself as Sarah. During that conversation, Sarah volunteered that her last name was Heath, Royal said, after he mentioned the acclaimed jazz musician Percy Heath. Palin’s maiden name is Heath.
Royal said the conversation went smoothly until some of his fellow Band members came over to the table. Sarah’s entire demeanor changed.
While Royal is a light skin black man sometimes mistaken as white by whites, his fellow jazzmen causing Heath’s attitude shift were dark skin.
"You could see it...the body language. There was a visceral reaction," said Royal who asked Sarah if something was wrong.
According to Royal, Heath’s response to his inquiry was, "Excuse me, but I don’t mess with black men."
Royal said he told Heath, "I’m a black man" and Sarah responded, "But, you’re not really black."
Royal, who admits trying to "hit on" Sarah, said he ended the conversation telling her not to worry about it and have a nice day.
Royal said he began connecting dots between that encounter 18-years ago and the current GOP VP candidate after watching a biographical report about Palin on television.
"I did not know Palin was the person I spoke with until I saw the MSNBC program," Royal said. "My reaction was Holy Shit!"
When asked how he could possible remember a brief encounter so many years ago, Royal said, "there are a lot of details I do not remember but the key triggers are things anyone could remember and when a person says "I don’t talk to black guys" when the black guys are not actually trying to date you or talk to in anyway that is not a dating comment but a racist one."
Gov Palin’s Press Secretary, Bill McAllister, did not respond to an emailed request for comment on Royal’s claims.
This encounter with Palin that Royal revealed comes at a time of revelations about dissatisfactions voiced by racial minorities in Alaska about the governance policies and practices of Palin, a former mayor of a small city elected as that state’s chief executive two years ago.
Eleanor Andrews, board chair of the Anchorage Urban League, said she is unaware of any programs or outreach to Alaska’s black community by Palin.
"It’s not a disengagement. It’s just no connection. She does not have relations with African Americans," said Andrews, a businesswoman and 44-year resident of Alaska.
While Gov Palin has twice refused to either attend or even formally recognize an official state holiday in Alaska important to African-Americans, she delivered a video-taped address this year for the convention of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group pushing secession of Alaska from the United States. Palin’s husband, Todd, belonged to this Party for seven years.
"People say that when [Palin] took over as governor blacks lost jobs in state government," said attorney Rex Butler. "It seems that the posture of her administration with blacks is: Don’t need them – Don’t worry about them."
Palin, through spokespersons, denies allegations that her record of hiring and retaining racial minorities in government posts compares poorly with her predecessors.
"I’m African-American and I am a big rebuttal to those charges," said Palin Press Secretary Bill McAllister, a former broadcast journalist.
"She is not averse to hiring Africa-Americans," said McAllister who acknowledged that Palin’s office "never" compiled statistics on minorities in her administration.
McAllister joined Palin’s staff in August 2008, a few months after a contentious meeting between Palin and a group of black leaders where her staffing was questioned.
With Palin’s campaign trail criticisms assailing Obama’s former pastor Jeremiah Wright Jr. being anti-white and anti-American, concerns again arise about a line in her RNC acceptance speech. The source of that line is the late writer Westbrook Pegler, a man known for his anti-Semitism, criticism of the 60s Civil Rights Movement and work with notorious segregationist groups.
Although a President Bush speech writer penned Palin’s RNC speech, she never distanced herself from Pegler once the source of that quote became widely known. Yet, Palin incorrectly claims Obama has never distanced himself from 60s-era radical Bill Ayers – the man she terms a domestic terrorist.
Racially tinged reactions at McCain-Palin rallies have made news recently. A person at a Palin rally in Fort Myers, Fl told a black television technician to "Sit down Boy" during outbursts following a Palin tirade against the media.
Royal says he’s "not political" although he admits favoring Obama. But Royal says he decided to reveal his encounter with Palin because he felt it was a factoid of some may find significant when considering the Palin candidacy.
"I feel that Palin is a very narrow viewed and culturally unsophisticated person who clearly has not seen the world or its diverse peoples," Royal said.
"The racism I believe she possesses is not necessarily from a misguided hatred but from a boastful ignorance that clearly celebrates the need not to know or the desire to know."
Linn Washington Jr. is a columnist for The Philadelphia Tribune.
At least Sarah's not a one-dropper.
But white people are the ones one-dropping Obama. So it turns out that you were wrong - Blacks aren't the ONLY ones who one-drop, haha.
Face it - white folks will never accept you as white, you old geezer. DEAL WITH IT!
Think of how confused serious scholars and researchers would be by Helena21's insults (which are shooting in the dark, but truth is unimportant to these people), which are allowed to stand. In addition, her reply to a discussion on the pressure to publicly deemphasize white ancestry with a non sequitur and false statement attributed to me only degrades the discussion.
I don't know. Removing the offending posts leaves the thread nicer-looking and, as Powell points out, gives a better impression. On the other hand, leaving them in shows the warning for the first offense followed by the immediate suspension for the second, thus serving as an example to newcomers. Sort of like leaving a micreant's head on a pike in a medieval village--ugly but an effective warning.
What's the precedent for this? Haven't we previously deleted offensive content in general and poster comments specifically when they cross the line?
We have edited poster remarks in the past and noted modifications/deletions in the original post, so as not to lose context.
While I am much opposed to censorship I am equally bothered by personal insults directed at a member of the community left out there in cyberspace if personal offense was taken.
Going along with the idea of making a public example, maybe we could the offender in "stocks" or change his/her insignia to a dunce cap or something.
My opinion is that the public sanction of the perceived offense is what matters. I can't speak for how other members would feel, but if a poster said something offensive about me and was warned for it, I probably wouldn't call for its removal. On the other hand, if I did feel strongly about the offensive text for some reason, I would want to have the right to have it removed, or at least put forth to the moderator board for consideration.
I believe that the authors of ad hominem attacks lose any right to protest censorship either way.
I certainly want the ad hominem insults against me deleted. If you leave the insults on the forum, you reward the offender. Reprimands and even suspensions are like water off a duck's back because the main objective (publicly insulting a certain person) has been achieved. Free speech is not involved. The offender is free to make an argument WITHOUT ad hominem attacks.
Can we just replace the insult with [Ad hominem remark edited out.] in the original post AND wherever it was quoted, including the moderator's warning and suspension messages? I definitely think those messages should remain, as a warning to all.
When were these posts by Helena21??? I just suspended her. I think she needs to be suspended again.
They are old posts. Those were the posts that led you to suspend her. (Before that, they led Tyrone to warn her.) At issue is whether we should retroactively edit out insults. So far, the consensus seems to be "yes."
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Wed 29 Oct 2008 12:58 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
DChapman wrote:
When were these posts by Helena21??? I just suspended her. I think she needs to be suspended again.
They are old posts. Those were the posts that led you to suspend her. (Before that, they led Tyrone to warn her.) At issue is whether we should retroactively edit out insults. So far, the consensus seems to be "yes."
Well, it looks like no one has anything to add, and the consensus is to delete the offending material (both in the original and in the moderators' warning/suspension messages) and replace it with something like "offensive ad hominem remark edited out".
I would be grateful if the respective moderators (Tyrone and Dean, or Other if they are not available) would take care of implementing this. Thanks, guys.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 31 Oct 2008 17:27 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Well, it looks like no one has anything to add, and the consensus is to delete the offending material (both in the original and in the moderators' warning/suspension messages) and replace it with something like "offensive ad hominem remark edited out".
I would be grateful if the respective moderators (Tyrone and Dean, or Other if they are not available) would take care of implementing this. Thanks, guys.
'
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