It is apparent that you have some emotional attachment to the issue, just as I do, so I see we really won't get anywhere with the topic.
All I will state is that I live here in the DR and I have compared that with living to the US and that my point of view is valid, no matter how you decide to overanalyze it. I furthermore question how people many people can apparently understand this dynamic without actually ever living here and seeing it for themselves. What a real shame in my opinion.
By the way, with reference to me posting:
off-topic and irrelevant conclusions
I wasn't the one who split this thread off of my "When will One Dropping be a thing of the past in the US?" thread. What started out as an example of stark contrast to "one dropping" found in the US has been a challenge of the racial integration found in the DR. Thus it is only natural that the topic of the thread would shift somewhat as well. I have seen other threads topics jump all over the place with little fanfare so I don't see why this one should be singled out nor why I should be put on notice for supposedly "straying" from the topic.
sincerely
1. This issue is far from emotional, for me at least. I do have a particular attachment, however, to "clean" debating and sound argumentation.
2. You've misunderstood. As a moderator I am responsible for splitting topics and keeping conversations on track. My comments are specifically about your somewhat puzzling asides in this conversation about Dominican self-identity.
3. While you may have valuable insights gleaned from living in the DR, your opinion is just that. Others have differing opinions, others may support your perspective, but without data it's all anecdotal, however interesting. From your comments it seems to me that you are stuck on this "Westerners just don't understand" mentality which strikes me because you are, by definition, a Westerner living in a Western nation. You make subtle yet erroneous assumptions about posters without knowing or even inquring about their experiences first.
I offer the advice because those are behaviors that get people in to trouble a lot here.
The often misunderstood 'indio' descriptor does not mean indigena (Native Amerindian). The way in which it is used is quite similar to Brazils' 'Pardo' in which people who are not clearly white or black but of mixed phenotype (mulattos/zambos/mestizos/tri-racials, etc.)
There was no OneDroppism (traditional or reverse) in DR. .
Thankyou sir!
I'm 100% Domiican too.This is a problem that I keep encountering from so called " scholars", such as Ernesto Sagas from C.U.N.Y, that just simplifies this " indio" issue in his book " Race and Politics in DR".
People like this characters are the ones that contribute to the " caricaturization of Dominicans as sub-saharan black deniers. Anti-Dominican Haitian organizations love to use people like this as " back up, prove, evidence" to make attacks on Dominicans.
"indio" is an ambiguous word. it can be used as racial, such as "Rigoberta Menchu from Guatemala is india", or it can be used as a " color description", indio becoming " the color of the Indians". Even thou that person doesn't have native american blood.
and this is where the " caricaturization " comes in.
The question is " can a color of the Tainos, be used to describe people"?
this is where the confusion from " foreign observers" come from.
Nobody is going to really know unless you ask that Dominican person, to make himself clear.
I've asked a couple of Dominicans from different regions, people that have atleast made it to high school level education.
I've asked" you are calling her india. Do you think she is really indian blood? or is just her color"?
Everybody said is just a color. Is not just that she is Pocahontas or Anacaona.
and why is that? because in DR schools they do teach that the Tainos and other natives of the island nearly got extinct by close of 17th century.
So obviously, when some Dominican tells you " oh, my friend is such a beutiful india". Don't be thinking that he is crazy, being prejudice and making judgements right away. Do some asking . He is not meaning that his friend is Pocahontas.
I myself don't use the term " indio" to describe shades of Mulattoes. " indio" as color, some type of Mulatto type, is not " pc", because of all the prejudice the users of it can get.
Is also good to keep in mind, that if you read Dominican social studies book, it says that the vast majority of Dominicans are mulattoes and blacks. Nowhere it says " indio". Ernesto Sagas failed make this contrasts in his simplistic book, that has been used as a weapon to attack Dominicans and portray them as brainless caricatures.
Another myth that is perpetuated to make Dominicans look like brainless caricature is
" the word Black doesn't exist for Domicans, it doesn't apply for them".
I've found this atrocious statement numerous times on various books and websites.
The word bor black exists, as is " moreno". moreno is the word for Afro-Dominican, both color and by ancestry.
moreno means different things in diffrent countries. " moreno" is a dark-bronw Indian in Mexico. In Spain, a morena is a White Brunette woman. People make the mistake of bringing the etymology of their own countries and applying it to others.
Some Dominicans do call themselves " negro", such as singer and now congressman Sergio Vargas, who calls himself " el negro de Villa". but negro is seen as pejorative for other reasons as Silvio-Torres Saillant from C.U.N.Y has explained.
During colonial times in DR, negro was synonimous with " slave". The vast majority of Blacks were free, so they adopted " moreno" to refer to themselves, " moreno" adquired a new etymology, it became synonimous with " free black".
Thus, some people would call a free black person " negro" as an insult, because he was calling him a slave. That stigma of " negro" has survived until this day, but that doesn't mean the word " Black" doesn't exist in DR, that is a lie.
My aunt on my father side in now dating a Dominican guy. I thought he was African judging the fact that he had an accent and was so dark. She runs around telling everyone her boyfriend is 'Mexican'. Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
Excuse me? Do you know that there are Mexicans that look like Sammy Sosa?
Ever heard of an old Mexican tv show called " chispas de chocolate"?
have you ever heard of the atrocious " Memin Pinguin" comic book in Mexico ?
This is another problem that I encounter all the time. People generalizing phenotypes for any specific country.
What a Mexican " supposes to look like to you?
some 5'3" man with brown skin, looking like Roberto Gomez Bolaños(Chespirito).??
I've been the victim of this myself. I'm 100% Dominican, my family has been in the country for over 3 centuries. Many people in U.S just look at me as make comment such as
" you don't look Dominican, you are too White to be Dominican".
and I'm like " Where the hell do you think Dominicans speak Spanish from? Nigeria???
I mean, it is ridiculous that we are in the 21th century and people still making generalizations of race/color/phenotype to people of a specific country.
My aunt on my father side in now dating a Dominican guy. I thought he was African judging the fact that he had an accent and was so dark. She runs around telling everyone her boyfriend is 'Mexican'. Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
Excuse me? Do you know that there are Mexicans that look like Sammy Sosa?
Ever heard of an old Mexican tv show called " chispas de chocolate"?
have you ever heard of the atrocious " Memin Pinguin" comic book in Mexico ?
This is another problem that I encounter all the time. People generalizing phenotypes for any specific country.
What a Mexican " supposes to look like to you?
some 5'3" man with brown skin, looking like Roberto Gomez Bolaños(Chespirito).??
I've been the victim of this myself. I'm 100% Dominican, my family has been in the country for over 3 centuries. Many people in U.S just look at me as make comment such as
" you don't look Dominican, you are too White to be Dominican".
and I'm like " Where the hell do you think Dominicans speak Spanish from? Nigeria???
I mean, it is ridiculous that we are in the 21th century and people still making generalizations of race/color/phenotype to people of a specific country.
In the case of Mexico, most Mexicans don't look like Samy Sosa, and most Americans' perception of Mexicans in based on the Mexicans and Chicanos they see in the U.S. Most of these people are either Amerindian or mestizo, just like the majority of Mexico's population.
In your case, I assume people's surprise that you are from the DR has to do with the image we in the U.S. have of Dominicans. Based on my own experience, most people I've encountered believe Dominicans are either West African looking or some kind of Afro/European hybrid.
My aunt on my father side in now dating a Dominican guy. I thought he was African judging the fact that he had an accent and was so dark. She runs around telling everyone her boyfriend is 'Mexican'. Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
Excuse me? Do you know that there are Mexicans that look like Sammy Sosa?
Ever heard of an old Mexican tv show called " chispas de chocolate"?
have you ever heard of the atrocious " Memin Pinguin" comic book in Mexico ?
This is another problem that I encounter all the time. People generalizing phenotypes for any specific country.
What a Mexican " supposes to look like to you?
some 5'3" man with brown skin, looking like Roberto Gomez Bolaños(Chespirito).??
I've been the victim of this myself. I'm 100% Dominican, my family has been in the country for over 3 centuries. Many people in U.S just look at me as make comment such as
" you don't look Dominican, you are too White to be Dominican".
and I'm like " Where the hell do you think Dominicans speak Spanish from? Nigeria???
I mean, it is ridiculous that we are in the 21th century and people still making generalizations of race/color/phenotype to people of a specific country.
In the case of Mexico, most Mexicans don't look like Samy Sosa, and most Americans' perception of Mexicans in based on the Mexicans and Chicanos they see in the U.S. Most of these people are either Amerindian or mestizo, just like the majority of Mexico's population.
In your case, I assume people's surprise that you are from the DR has to do with the image we in the U.S. have of Dominicans. Based on my own experience, most people I've encountered believe Dominicans are either West African looking or some kind of Afro/European hybrid.
You are correct, that is the common stereotypical perception. I also find it varies by region.
Here's an example:
Here in the East Coast, specifically the NYC/NJ area majority of Mexicans come from the southern Mexican regions who population are heavily Amerindian. The majority display either a pure Amerindian or majority Amerindian phenotype. The Latinos (and others) have that stereotypical image of Mexican, when I once saw a busload of very Eurolooking Mexican tourist a NJ mall I almost mistook them for Argentines if not for their accents.
As for Dominicans, we are only the 3rd or 4th largest Latino group in the USA and are concentrated mostly in the East Coast tri-state area. The rest of the country knows very little to none about us, baseball players are what they know the most. Most baseball players come from the Eastern Provinces which have the highest percentage of Afrodescendancy in particular San Pedro De Macoris and thus that is our image.
The reality is that there is alot of overlap between Cubans, Dominicans, and Puerto Ricans in phenotypes. If I had to make a simplistic generalization, the difference on average between a PR and a DR is the percentage of Afrodescendancy is higher in Dominicans.
If find that not only are people surprised by 'white' Dominicans but also any Dominican that does not look like David Ortiz, Sammy Sosa or at least looks of heavy Afrodescendancy. They usually get confused for Puerto Rican.
I am a typical Dominican and once I leave this area Puerto Rican is the number one guess I get from people in Texas and Mexico.
In the case of Mexico, most Mexicans don't look like Samy Sosa, and most Americans' perception of Mexicans in based on the Mexicans and Chicanos they see in the U.S. Most of these people are either Amerindian or mestizo, just like the majority of Mexico's population.
In your case, I assume people's surprise that you are from the DR has to do with the image we in the U.S. have of Dominicans. Based on my own experience, most people I've encountered believe Dominicans are either West African looking or some kind of Afro/European hybrid.
I understand what you are saying, What I meant by "sammy-sosa-looking Mexican" is that is the poster was saying that it was something " ridiculous" for her aunt to say that his boyfriend is " Mexican". When in fact, you can find some Mexicans that can be Black or atleas a mixture of Amerindian and Black, known as "Zamboangos", like there are in Peru. These Black/zamboango populations can be found in the Mexican states of Veracruz. She was talking that her aunt saying his Dominican boyfriend is Mexican, like he was saying some green man with three eyes and four arms was Mexican, like some alian from outer space.
Concerning my case, like Cimmerian was saying, it is true, that " baseball players" and tourist going to Punta Cana, is where most Americans get their image of what a " Dominican looks like".
But I don't see why people have to be so " surprised", it's just common sense that people of " predominant Spanish decent" exist in DR.
DR was, after all, a colony of Spain.
Also, unlike other countries in the Caribbean basin, we speak Spanish, not a creole like found in Haiti or Jamaica. ( around 95% of Haitians don't speak French at all).
You might ask yourself " what language has to do with anything?". Well, it has to do alot. The presence of Mulattoes and White or near-White Dominicans is the link that makes DR a Spanish-speaking country. If DR were a 95% heavy African blood like Haiti, Dominicans would've been speaking a Spanish-based Creole.
Just a little knowleadge of " basic Caribbean history", can explain the existance of Dominicans like me, instead of embarassing themselves with idiotic, ignorant comments.
Frank Moya Pons: excerpts from " Dominican National Identity in Hisotorical Perspective".
" Social and racial discrimination as experienced by thousands of Dominicans in the urban ghettos of New York made them aware of their actual racial constitution, and taught them that they are not too different from their West Indian neighbors....Many returned to santo Domingo and their hometowns transformed both outwardly an inwardly in their thoughts, their clothes, their feelings, their language, and their music......
The discovery of Dominican negritude was not the result of an intellectiual campaign as had bene the case in Haiti and Martinique......The real discovery of the Dominican black roots was a result of the behavior of the returning migrants....Racial and cultural denial worked for many years, but migration to the United States finally cracked down the ideological block of the traditional definition of Dominican identity".
Frank Moya Pons has written mnay books concerning the Dominican history and identity and was Research Director of a Dominican studies dept at CUNY.
Also an article about Haitian influences on Dominican speech.
In a nutshell, Dominicans have an dislike for most things Haitian, and therefore are going to give less favor to certain characteristics that most Haitians have (that have come in contact with Dominicans) like somewhat dark skin, curly hair, wide noses and big lips. Interestingly, many if not most Dominicans have at least a few if not all of the characteristics, thus these seemingly ironic and hypocritical opinions don't really match up with the reality of the situation.
The same would apply to black Dominicans of non-Haitian and non-Anglo-Caribbean stock as well.
The question that needs to be answered is are these people treated radically differently from other Dominicans.
Correct. The following is one example of someone of Anglo-Caribbean ancestry, national hero Gregorio Luperon, who is viewed as:
a) A national war hero
b) Of black phenotype (African ancestry,not white, not 'indio')
c) Dominican
d) Not treated differently than other non-black Dominicans.
Ex-Senator Williams of San Pedro de Macoris, is a black Dominican and due to the English surname most would assume he is of Cocolo descent.
Anglo-phone Caribbean cultural influences and/or ancestry is not downplayed or denied, it is standard knowledge and doesn't carry the negative Haitian stigma even during their early arrival. The negative stigma attributed to Haitians are way above and beyond the phenotype stereotypes.
Another example would be the basketball team 'Los Cocolos de San Pedro de Macoris'. It is something openly acknowledged.I've never seen or heard of any negative treatment, in real life or in academia, to a black Domincan or one of Cocolo simply because of those facts.
Last edited by CIMMERIAN on Tue 17 Nov 2009 18:41; edited 1 time in total
In a nutshell, Dominicans have an dislike for most things Haitian, and therefore are going to give less favor to certain characteristics that most Haitians have (that have come in contact with Dominicans) like somewhat dark skin, curly hair, wide noses and big lips. Interestingly, many if not most Dominicans have at least a few if not all of the characteristics, thus these seemingly ironic and hypocritical opinions don't really match up with the reality of the situation.
Well Cocolos cant be that favored given that phenotypical most are not that different in appearance from Haitians.
I previously gave you a very clear and credible reference that greatly weakens the whole racist/racialist overgeneralizations of equating anti-Haitian stereotypes to everything and anything 'black'. If I correctly recall your response, you were going to 'dig something up' to refute what I stated in my post. If you still hold the opinion that Cocolos and Haitians are not perceived as being very different simply because of similarity of phenotypes, than I'm afraid that there is something else that maybe influencing your scholarly interest. Recall that one must try their very best to remove whatever ethnocentric lens one has on when tryinig to understand another culture.
The same would apply to black Dominicans of non-Haitian and non-Anglo-Caribbean stock as well.
The question that needs to be answered is are these people treated radically differently from other Dominicans.
Correct. The following is one example of someone of Anglo-Caribbean ancestry, national hero Gregorio Luperon, who is viewed as:
a) A national war hero
b) Of black phenotype (African ancestry,not white, not 'indio')
c) Dominican
d) Not treated differently than other non-black Dominicans.
Ex-Senator Williams of San Pedro de Macoris, is a black Dominican and due to the English surname most would assume he is of Cocolo descent.
Anglo-phone Caribbean cultural influences and/or ancestry is not downplayed or denied, it is standard knowledge and doesn't carry the negative Haitian stigma even during their early arrival. The negative stigma attributed to Haitians are way above and beyond the phenotype stereotypes.
Another example would be the basketball team 'Los Cocolos de San Pedro de Macoris'. It is something openly acknowledged.I've never seen or heard of any negative treatment, in real life or in academia, to a black Domincan or one of Cocolo simply because of those facts.
CIMMERIAN when Cocolos first went to Santo Domingo, as they called it, they were regarded as a foreign invading laborforce brought in by the Americans and not particularly well treated either. I will let you know that I have very close connections to both St KItts and Nevis and legends of illtreatment at the hands of the Dominican military or peasantry were legends that were brought back by migrants when they returned. This is why most returned after the cane harvest was over even though there wasnt anything to do in those islands. Even as a small kid I heard about the dreadedTRujillo from my Kittitian mother who never went to the DR nor did any of her close relatives. But who knew many who did.
It was only in comparison with Haitians, illiterate compared to the Cocolos, most of whom were probably more literate than even Dominicans of their social class and their British passports that eventually earned them respect. And I have heard the debate as to well Cocolo is an ethnic term of pride or an insult.
I will not argue with their contemporary status in the Dom Rep but their initial introduction to life in the DR wasnt an easy one.
As an aside can you tell me why the same term "cocolo" is used to describe this group and also used in Puerto Rico and NYC not with particularly flattering meanings? I dont think that people from Tortola are demographically significant in either PR or NYC, even if they once were in San Pedro de Macoris and La Romana. Surely some light will be shed as to how ell regarded Cocolos were held when the first arrived between the 1890s and the 1930s.
Last edited by caribj on Wed 18 Nov 2009 00:19; edited 2 times in total
[I previously gave you a very clear and credible reference that greatly weakens the whole racist/racialist overgeneralizations of equating anti-Haitian stereotypes to everything and anything 'black'.
I was expecting a reaction about comments made by Frank Moya Pons. Why not? This is a Hispanic who is well regarded in being knowledgeable about the Dominican idnetity.
Any way as some one connected to St KItts Nevis who is old enough to have had grandparents who certainly knew those who did they dont report as hospitable treatment from the Dominican authorities as you claim. I am not even sure if in the earliest days Dominicans bothered to differentiate West Indians from Haitians. Both were dirt poor and went to do a job which Dominican despised. Over time Cocolos were more favored, compared to Haitians. Whether that means as favored as Dominicans less obviously subSaharan African in appearance who knows. One can ponder whether one is more likely to find their descendants on a baseball team or as the CEO or SVP of a major Dominican corporation.
Now if you wnat to say that in 2009 Cocolos live well I am not going to debate you, but this didnt seem to be the case in the 1920s.
CIMMERIAN when Cocolos first went to Santo Domingo, as they called it, they were regarded as a foreign invading laborforce brought in by the Americans and not particularly well treated either. I will let you know that I have very close connections to both St KItts and Nevis and legends of illtreatment at the hands of the Dominican military or peasantry were legends that were brought back by migrants when they returned. This is why most returned after the cane harvest was over even though there wasnt anything to do in those islands. Even as a small kid I heard about the dreadedTRujillo from my Kittitian mother who never went to the DR nor did any of her close relatives. But who knew many who did.
It was only in comparison with Haitians, illiterate compared to the Cocolos, most of whom were probably more literate than even Dominicans of their social class and their British passports that eventually earned them respect. And I have heard the debate as to well Cocolo is an ethnic term of pride or an insult.
I will not argue with their contemporary status in the Dom Rep but their initial introduction to life in the DR wasnt an easy one.
caribj,
You haven't said anything different from the standard story of Cocolo immigration. You essentially repeated what I've already stated in my original post, except that you only concentrated on their initial arrival. When they first arrived they experienced great difficulties as foreigners, but then gradually they came to be admired.
So I will take this to mean you acknowledge the validity of my post.
Quote:
One can ponder whether one is more likely to find their descendants on a baseball team or as the CEO or SVP of a major Dominican corporation.
No need to ponder, I've already addressed the fact that their descendants can be found in very diverse professional fields, I never made any mention of baseball.
Quote:
According to this he was Dominican and not from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Carefull with quoting wikipedia:
This article does not cite any references or sources.
"Nacido de madre inglesa, la cual emigra a Republica Dominicana, siendo ella dueña de un colmadito (ventorrillo) da a luz a un varón en el año de 1839, al cual inculcándole los valores del trabajo arduo, siendo El un vendutero callejero, que bandeja en mano, vendía PIÑONATE, con solo 14 años, para ayudar al sostenimiento del hogar.
Hablaba el idioma ingles, ya que era el que se hablaba en la casa, y en conjunto con el idioma español su horizonte tenia mayor distancia. "
http://luperonclub.tripod.com/historia/id7.html "Restaurador y patriota nativo de Puerto Plata. Nació en el año de 1839. Hijo de Nicolasa Luperón una inmigrante de color, inglesa, dueña de un ventorrillo y para quién de niño, tuvo que vender piñonate en una bandeja por las calles, para ayudar al sostenimiento del hogar. " http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/l/luperon.htm "Conocía bien la lengua inglesa (su madre era una inmigrante de color de las islas británicas),"
Speaking of Gregorio Luperon, I came across this interesting passage:
"'...should begin to think seriously about the destiny reserved by Providence for the Negroes and mulattoes of America. From now on, this destiny is manifest, given the present number of this [mulatto] race; and I believe the island of Santo Domingo is called to be the nucleus, the model of its glorification and individuality in this hemisphere.'
And here's another one some may find of interest, a direct quote from Juan Pablo Duarte, considered the idealogical founding father of DR:
"Los blancos, morenos/Cobrizos, cruzados/Marchando serenos,/Unidos i osados,
La Patria salvemos/De viles tiranos/Y al mundo mostraremos/Que somos hermanos." Juan Pablo Duarte
I was expecting a reaction about comments made by Frank Moya Pons. Why not? This is a Hispanic who is well regarded in being knowledgeable about the Dominican idnetity.
Agreed, Frank Moya Pons is a very highly regarded Dominican historian. His historical works are frequently cited by various authors in regards to Dominican history, he is very well respected.
Before I address his comments, let's make sure we all correctly interpret them:
Quote:
Social and racial discrimination as experienced by thousands of Dominicans in the urban ghettos of New York made them aware of their actual racial constitution, and taught them that they are not too different from their West Indian neighbors....Many returned to santo Domingo and their hometowns transformed both outwardly an inwardly in their thoughts, their clothes, their feelings, their language, and their music......
Due to the discrimination Dominican immigrants in the USA experience, they are made 'racially' aware of the fact that they're similar to their West Indian neighbors (black?)? And then go back to DR with this newly acquired awareness?
Dominican immigrants, 1st and 2nd generation included, are pretty much on the same page in regards to self-identity. US influenced racialism has not been an impact, no one droppism. As far as childhood, I've always recalled the fact that even uneducated campesinos were aware of the fact that if you're not lily white than you're black in the USA.
As far as clothing, music, etc. yes, alot of Hip-Hop/Urban influenced trends.
Quote:
The discovery of Dominican negritude was not the result of an intellectiual campaign as had bene the case in Haiti and Martinique......The real discovery of the Dominican black roots was a result of the behavior of the returning migrants....Racial and cultural denial worked for many years, but migration to the United States finally cracked down the ideological block of the traditional definition of Dominican identity".
While I can understand the temptation to an appeal to authority such as Mr. Pons, this commentary is simply wrong as is the frequent case of academics vs reality (overintellectualizing, ivory tower academics, etc.)returning migrants share the same traditional definition of Dominican identity as the natives (if I correctly understand what was written).
Dominican self-identity is exactly what has been posted here by various posters. If anyone is interested, I can post the findings of various authors, all with their own different 'take' on DR, but all with very similar conclusions.
[caribj,
You haven't said anything different from the standard story of Cocolo immigration. You essentially repeated what I've already stated in my original post, except that you only concentrated on their initial arrival. When they first arrived they experienced great difficulties as foreigners, but then gradually they came to be admired.
So I will take this to mean you acknowledge the validity of my post.
Quote:
One can ponder whether one is more likely to find their descendants on a baseball team or as the CEO or SVP of a major Dominican corporation.
No need to ponder, I've already addressed the fact that their descendants can be found in very diverse professional fields, I never made any mention of baseball.
Quote:
According to this he was Dominican and not from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Carefull with quoting wikipedia:
This article does not cite any references or sources.
"Nacido de madre inglesa, la cual emigra a Republica Dominicana, siendo ella dueña de un colmadito (ventorrillo) da a luz a un varón en el año de 1839, al cual inculcándole los valores del trabajo arduo, siendo El un vendutero callejero, que bandeja en mano, vendía PIÑONATE, con solo 14 años, para ayudar al sostenimiento del hogar.
Hablaba el idioma ingles, ya que era el que se hablaba en la casa, y en conjunto con el idioma español su horizonte tenia mayor distancia. "
http://luperonclub.tripod.com/historia/id7.html "Restaurador y patriota nativo de Puerto Plata. Nació en el año de 1839. Hijo de Nicolasa Luperón una inmigrante de color, inglesa, dueña de un ventorrillo y para quién de niño, tuvo que vender piñonate en una bandeja por las calles, para ayudar al sostenimiento del hogar. " http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/l/luperon.htm "Conocía bien la lengua inglesa (su madre era una inmigrante de color de las islas británicas),"
From Caribbean Migrants:Environment and Human Survival in St Kitts and Nevis, by Bonham C R8ichardson, page 128.
They (Cocolos) were conspicuous by their dark skin and unfamiliarity with Spanish, and were almost unicersally disliked and insulted by Dominicans with whom they came into contact.
..........and the migrant workers complained continuously of inhumane treatment on the sugar estates. These charges centered on the alleged brutality of the LOCAL overseers.
(page 130) In 1929 the Dominican Republic severely restricted immigration of black workers from the English speaking islands. Men from St Kitts and Nevis who had stayed in th Dominican REpublic were bing deported by the early 1930s. In 1935, an article in the Union Messenger stated "....now under the new policy of extreme nationalism-a result of post war rivalries, West Indians are no longer wanted and those who escape being hounded out have a thin time in making ends meet"
CIMMERIAN contrary to what you say Cocolos when they first arrived were not liked by Dominicans and did not intially have an easy time.
You will recall that Trujillo at the time was desperately trying to encourage migration to the DR from Europe. Its BLACK immigration that he didnt want.
This source traces the human history of St Kitts and Nevis using sources, newspapers and other pieces of data that told life from a Kittitian and Nevisian point of view. I suspect that their accounts of what life in the DR was between 1900-1935 are more credible than what a Dominican account of that epriod might be.
As I told you I will not argue about what the contemporary situation of Cocolos are. Being a small % of the population its hard to find accounts. I will repeat however. In the early days they were not liked and this was because of perceived racial reasons, culture, and being a foreign labor forced working for foreign capitalists.
I suspect that to the extent that their situation improved it was the superior education and skills which they brought with them that allowed them to overcome their initial disadvantages and the Trujillo racist period. Just as West Indian migrants to Harlem in the same period were able to do. In fact Bill Thompson who was almost mayor of NYC is a descendant of Kittitian migrants who arrived in the USA around the same period. His father is a judge who had tremendous power within the mainly white Democratic political machinery even in the early 1960s.
Primary school education was, and still is, more available to the poor in the Anglophone Caribbean than in the Dominican Republic. Many of these migrants would have also brought with them trades, and of course speaking English in a land where many of the investors were American, didnt hurt how Dominicans eventually would have viewed them.
One can conjecture as to how they would have ultimately been viewed if they arrived with the levels of illiteracy and lack of skills of their Haitian counterparts. And of having a phenotype almost indistinguishable from Haitians.
The previous piece I posted also states that Trujillio didnt too much like these black foreigners either discouraging their Xmas celebrations. Trujillo was presidnet for a significant time wasnt he? Any ideas why he was assaulted by the presence of foreign blacks speaking an alien language?
Luperon was not part of the Cocolo migration, was born in the DR and had a Dominican ather. My Spanish is bad but that is my understanding of your post. Slavery was abolished in the British West Indies in 1838. It is hardly likely that a full African ex slave from the BWI would have had the resources to migrate to a non English speaking country at that time. I am interested in who his mother really was. Maybe a free mulatto woman? I very much doubt a humble laborer.
Last edited by caribj on Wed 18 Nov 2009 20:06; edited 1 time in total
I was expecting a reaction about comments made by Frank Moya Pons. Why not? This is a Hispanic who is well regarded in being knowledgeable about the Dominican idnetity.
Agreed, Frank Moya Pons is a very highly regarded Dominican historian. His historical works are frequently cited by various authors in regards to Dominican history, he is very well respected.
Before I address his comments, let's make sure we all correctly interpret them:
Quote:
Social and racial discrimination as experienced by thousands of Dominicans in the urban ghettos of New York made them aware of their actual racial constitution, and taught them that they are not too different from their West Indian neighbors....Many returned to santo Domingo and their hometowns transformed both outwardly an inwardly in their thoughts, their clothes, their feelings, their language, and their music......
Due to the discrimination Dominican immigrants in the USA experience, they are made 'racially' aware of the fact that they're similar to their West Indian neighbors (black?)? And then go back to DR with this newly acquired awareness?
Dominican immigrants, 1st and 2nd generation included, are pretty much on the same page in regards to self-identity. US influenced racialism has not been an impact, no one droppism. As far as childhood, I've always recalled the fact that even uneducated campesinos were aware of the fact that if you're not lily white than you're black in the USA.
As far as clothing, music, etc. yes, alot of Hip-Hop/Urban influenced trends.
Quote:
The discovery of Dominican negritude was not the result of an intellectiual campaign as had bene the case in Haiti and Martinique......The real discovery of the Dominican black roots was a result of the behavior of the returning migrants....Racial and cultural denial worked for many years, but migration to the United States finally cracked down the ideological block of the traditional definition of Dominican identity".
While I can understand the temptation to an appeal to authority such as Mr. Pons, this commentary is simply wrong as is the frequent case of academics vs reality (overintellectualizing, ivory tower academics, etc.)returning migrants share the same traditional definition of Dominican identity as the natives (if I correctly understand what was written).
Dominican self-identity is exactly what has been posted here by various posters. If anyone is interested, I can post the findings of various authors, all with their own different 'take' on DR, but all with very similar conclusions.
It will be nice if we can discuss race/color/identity without confining it to the highly unusual US definitions of race. The USA is the ONLY one drop nation. Not even South Africa adopts this rule. So a comparison with West Indians will mean that a mixed category will be recognized. In fact most Dominicans will be considered to be "dark red", or in a Latin parlance, dark mulato. So referencing West Indians will suggest not one drop, but to suggest a non Eurocentric notion of identity which privileges the African heritage alongside the European heritage and will suggest a historic narrative from the point of view of the majority of West Indians, i.e. telling the story of the slave, not the planter or colonial governors.
Given that Dominican women are called "butter skin women" in the Anglophone because of their appearances that means (many work in the sex industry) clearly from a west Indian point of view the stereotypical Dominican is mixed. The question will be are they the type of mixed race people who "tink dey white", an accusation thrown at mixed race people in the Anglophone Caribbean who have traditionally looked down on their darker skinned compatriots. If they think this they will be quickly put in their place by their black employers or "johns". Dominicans occupying the bottom of the occupational ranking.
I reference Moya Pons as I mentioned Saillant Torres, BOTH Dominicans and therefore indicative that not every Dominican has notions of idnetity in accord with yours. In fact a Dominican on another thread (Nelson) even suggests that Latins have a tendency to deny that colorism is a problem within their societies. I have no doubt that you will reference Dominican intellectuals who have a perspective more kin to yours. Clearly there is an emerging diversity in how Dominicans see themselves, how they view their attitude sto their African heritage and "race" and other Caribbean peoples, maybe even Haitians.
Now as an indicator of the preferences of Dominicans, how many dark skinned Miss Dominican Republics have been entered into the Miss Universe contest? Is their the diversity in phenotype that one will see with Trinidad & Tobago as an example?
Last edited by caribj on Wed 18 Nov 2009 20:03; edited 1 time in total
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Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
