The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' "Black people come in different colors".... Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> History of the U.S. Color Line Author Message Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 04:03    Post subject: "Black people come in different colors".... I cringe every time I see or hear this. Why do some Black people say this? Why do they classify every person with known or discernible African ancestry as Black? Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 05:22    Post subject: Why do you cringe? Back to top Powell SuperMentor Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2536 } Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 13:38    Post subject: Re: "Black people come in different colors".... Whatareyou? wrote: I cringe every time I see or hear this. Why do some Black people say this? Why do they classify every person with known or discernible African ancestry as Black? One might well "cringe" because the blacks and black-identified folks who do this are, in effect, validating an idea based on the assumption of their genetic inferiority. Can you imagine Jews using their power to keep the myth of "Aryan" and "non-Aryan" races alive? How do blacks and liberals expect to argue against the REAL racists determined to scientifically prove the super-inferiority of SSA DNA when THEY are using their power to say that SSA genes are totally different from other human DNA and super-dominant? All white racist doctrines (including Nazism/Aryanism) are based on the premise that the white/Aryan race must remain "pure" or it will be destroyed. Racism is thus presented as self-defense. That's why the Nazis tried to present the Holocaust as a form of justifiable homicide. The black American devotion to hypodescent also appears to be based on an inferiority complex - a fear of becoming TOO BLACK. Latinos REALLY come in "all colors," and they use that fact to argue that they are NOT a "race." Can you imagine racial classification forms with "Black (regardless of race)" and "White (regardless of race)"? If "blacks" come in "all colors," why not? Isn't it because "race" and the SSA phenotype are at the core of "black" identity and anyone who claims to be "black" but doesn't look "black" becomes a sort of genetic freak - especially since they are often forbidden (by blacks) to identify with their white or otherwise nonblack ancestry? Notice that despite all the insults thrown at Sonia Sotomayor, no one has called her "black" or called attention to her obvious African ancestry. She is of Puerto Rican parentage. Everyone in Washington knows that Puerto Ricans are basically a "mulatto" people (like Dominicans). Why are they keeping quiet about her possibly becoming the FIRST WOMAN OF AFRICAN DESCENT on the U.S. Supreme Court? Doesn't everyone know? It's because African SSA ancestry is still (quietly) a shame and disgrace that polite people don't mention when certain groups (Hispanics, Arabs, etc.) have made it clear that they DO NOT want to be classed with "African Americans." Yet, partially black Creoles and Anglos are supposed to pretend to be "proud" of the "one drop" stigma when not even mentioing SSA ancestry is accepted as the way to show respect to Hispanics, Arabs, etc. Back to top Melani23 Superuser Joined: 30 Aug 2005 {Posts: 1198 } Location: USA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 13:43    Post subject: Actually, I remember reading somewhere (an encyclopedia or anthropological website, sorry, I don't remember the source), that Native Africans of SSA come is a range of about 8 different colors. So, bearing this in mind, one can probably infer that Native SSA Africans come in a range of shades from yellowish-brown to ebony. On the other hand, yes, African-Americans/Black Americans/Carribean Blacks, etc (i.e Dispora individuals of SSA) DO come in many shades, but this is not 'NATIVE' or 'NATURAL'. It's because of miscegnation/admixture. IMO, I feel many AAs like to say 'Blacks come in many colors' yada, yada, yada as a way to deny mixed-raced identity, instill unity, promote racial pride, poke Whitey by making such a statement, while denying the OBVIOUS source. It's a DNA LIE and a ruse. I'm sorry, mixed-racial features, green eyes, straight/wavy hair, white or yellow skin is not native to SSAs (beyond the Out of Africa theories)...... And there are alot of brown White Americans too.... Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:39    Post subject: Quote: On the other hand, yes, African-Americans/Black Americans/Carribean Blacks, etc (i.e Dispora individuals of SSA) DO come in many shades, Is this a statement of fact? Is it literally true to say that members of the black American ethnic group show a variety of phenotypes? If it is true, then why should a statement of fact make anyone cringe? If it isn't true, then why should another ethnic group's self identification concern anyone but members of that ethnic group? Back to top Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 16:12    Post subject: Melani23 wrote: ause of miscegnation/admixture. IMO, I feel many AAs like to say 'Blacks come in many colors' yada, yada, yada as a way to deny mixed-raced identity, instill unity, promote racial pride, poke Whitey by making such a statement, while denying the OBVIOUS source. It's a DNA LIE and a ruse. I'm sorry, mixed-racial features, green eyes, straight/wavy hair, white or yellow skin is not native to SSAs (beyond the Out of Africa theories)...... And there are alot of brown White Americans too.... Exactly why I cringe, because the people who say this, know it. It's a DNA LIE and a ruse Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 16:18    Post subject: Quote: Exactly why I cringe, because the people who say this, know it. It's a DNA LIE and a ruse Could you define what you mean by "a DNA lie"? Do you mean that the black American ethnic group has no admixture? Back to top Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 16:29    Post subject: odocoileus wrote: Quote: Exactly why I cringe, because the people who say this, know it. It's a DNA LIE and a ruse Could you define what you mean by "a DNA lie"? Do you mean that the black American ethnic group has no admixture? That's the insinuation of saying Black people come in all colors; Green eyes, straight/wavy hair, white or yellow skin is native to SSA is the insinuation. Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 16:37    Post subject: Quote: That's the insinuation of saying Black people come in all colors; Green eyes, straight/wavy hair, white or yellow skin is native to SSA is the insinuation. So are we discussing members of the black American ethnic group, or Africans, or both? By your definition, are black Americans and Africans part of the same ethnic group? Could you give me some examples of Africans making the claim that "black people come in all colors"? I am only familiar with black Americans making this claim. Back to top Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 17:08    Post subject: odocoileus wrote: Quote: That's the insinuation of saying Black people come in all colors; Green eyes, straight/wavy hair, white or yellow skin is native to SSA is the insinuation. So are we discussing members of the black American ethnic group, or Africans, or both? By your definition, are black Americans and Africans part of the same ethnic group? Could you give me some examples of Africans making the claim that "black people come in all colors"? I am only familiar with black Americans making this claim. I'm discussing Black American's, like you, I'm only familiar with Black Americans making this claim. Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 17:28    Post subject: Quote: Notice that despite all the insults thrown at Sonia Sotomayor, no one has called her "black" or called attention to her obvious African ancestry. She is of Puerto Rican parentage. Everyone in Washington knows that Puerto Ricans are basically a "mulatto" people (like Dominicans). Why are they keeping quiet about her possibly becoming the FIRST WOMAN OF AFRICAN DESCENT on the U.S. Supreme Court? Doesn't everyone know? I don't know if Sotomayor has African ancestry or not. I haven't seen any DNA tests or geneological studies. I do know that she calls herself Nuyorican, and considers herself part of the Puerto Rican -American ethnic group. If someone doesn't call themselves mulatto, black, colored, whatever, I have no interest in forcing such a label on them. As far as I know, Sotomayor's family members are all part of the Puerto Rican/Nuyorican ethnic group. If her family members were part of the black American ethnic group, maybe people would be raising the issue. As it stands, I've seen no evidence of any cultural or familial ties to the black American ethnic group. Back to top BlackHaze Experienced User Joined: 29 Dec 2004 {Posts: 122 } Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 01:53    Post subject: odocoileus wrote: Why do you cringe? I was going to ask the same question... The statement would only sounds ridiculous to someone who believes that people can be literally black in the first place. Considering that "Black American" is an ethnic group that historically included people of "all colors", and that there still are people of all colors who claim membership to this "group", it shouldn't come as a surprise that some people say that. I'd bet that it's mostly older blacks who say this though. Not many people would claim a white looking, white identified person with SSA ancestry as "black". There might be a hand full of extremists who say these things but they don't truely believe it. That's like asking why do Dominicans claim that their brethren with dark brown skin and obvious African ancestry are "indian" rather than "black"? Is that also a "dna lie"? This is a long held tradition in some latino social circles, and yes it's based on an ideology that deems "black" to be inferior. That doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the tradition anytime soon. Back to top Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 02:45    Post subject: BlackHaze wrote: That's like asking why do Dominicans claim that their brethren with dark brown skin and obvious African ancestry are "indian" rather than "black"? Is that also a "dna lie"? yes, it is. Quote: This is a long held tradition in some latino social circles, and yes it's based on an ideology that deems "black" to be inferior. That doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the tradition anytime soon. I would like to see these SSA deniers take a dna test and have the results revealed on camera. Back to top Whatareyou? Regular User Joined: 03 Sep 2007 {Posts: 59 } Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 02:48    Post subject: BlackHaze wrote: The statement would only sounds ridiculous to someone who believes that people can be literally black in the first place. Considering that "Black American" is an ethnic group that historically included people of "all colors", and that there still are people of all colors who claim membership to this "group", it shouldn't come as a surprise that some people say that. I'd bet that it's mostly older blacks who say this though. : The statement is not made as an ethnic reality, but rather a genetic/racial one. I've read numerous comments claiming white looking people as Black because they have a parent with SSA. "They are not White....Black people come all colors" Back to top girlfromthenc Mentor Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 269 } Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 02:54    Post subject: Many AA people, like Debra Dickerson and myself, don't consider Obama Black American either (and he's darker and more African looking than Sonia Sotomayor) just because he isn't a descendant of an American slave. Is that fair? Probably not, but if you go around to most cultures, most people require at least 1 ancestor from their community. If they didn't that would be a real case of racial kidnapping! I would also like to add that there are different "races" of Black Africans who are different 'colors'. Genetic diversity did not start up 400 years ago once America got up and running. America could fit into Africa 3 times so even if AA people came mainly from Western and Central Africa, that still leaves a very huge gene pool they are pulling from. Also, since most AA people don't know the specifics about their heritage, it seems rather impossible to separate how much of their anesthetic are naturally African and which are European influenced. I know so many Black people who credit having high cheekbones as proof they have Native American ancestry. Or slant eyes for that matter, as "looking Chinese". Many Americans don't realize these features are quite common in the West and Central African population. Back to top BlackHaze Experienced User Joined: 29 Dec 2004 {Posts: 122 } Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 07:29    Post subject: There's a tribe in Africa whose people tend to have "slanted" eyes. I don't remember the name but it starts with a K. Not the Khoisan but a tribe in West Africa. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5542 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Sat 06 Jun 2009 14:00    Post subject: Whatareyou? wrote: I've read numerous comments claiming white looking people as Black because they have a parent with SSA. "They are not White....Black people come all colors" There is no doubt that many Americans conflate: (1) genetic ancestry (How much sub-Saharan ancestry do you have?), with (2) ethnopolitical group membership (Do you consider yourself A-A?), with (3) ethnic heritage (Did your grandparents experience the Jim Crow period as A-As?) Those who stress the first perspective say that Afro-looking Brazilians are Black. Those who stress the second say that Gregory Howard Williams is Black. Those who stress the third say that Carol Channing is Black. President Obama is A-A to viewpoints 1 and 2 but not to viewpoint 3. Some Americans are stricter than others in applying the above three criteria. Also, many Americans are unable to articulate viewpoint 3 accurately, even though it is what they mean. For example, girlfromthenc wrote: Many AA people, like Debra Dickerson and myself, don't consider Obama Black American either... just because he isn't a descendant of an American slave. This implies that virtually all Latin Americans and one-third of White Anglo-Americans are Black because they provably "are descendants of an [at least one] American slave." Obviously, this is not what girlfromthenc meant to imply. Finally, most Americans in my experience are inconsistent, arguing viewpoint 1 in one breath and then denying it in favor of viewpoint 2 or 3 in the very next breath (or vice-versa). Nevertheless, no matter how odd and quirky Americans are on this issue, this particular forum is not the place to argue that any of the three viewpoints is reprehensible. So please go to "Issues for Biracial Americans" if you want to "cringe" or express value judgment about others' beliefs. This particular forum (History of the U.S. Color Line) is meant solely for dispassionate intellectual study of this U.S. weirdness. Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 10 Jun 2009 16:11; edited 1 time in total Back to top Powell SuperMentor Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2536 } Posted: Mon 08 Jun 2009 02:48    Post subject: BlackHaze wrote: odocoileus wrote: Why do you cringe? I was going to ask the same question... The statement would only sounds ridiculous to someone who believes that people can be literally black in the first place. Considering that "Black American" is an ethnic group that historically included people of "all colors", and that there still are people of all colors who claim membership to this "group", it shouldn't come as a surprise that some people say that. I'd bet that it's mostly older blacks who say this though. Not many people would claim a white looking, white identified person with SSA ancestry as "black". There might be a hand full of extremists who say these things but they don't truely believe it. How do you explain the demonization of the late Anatole Broyard as a "black" who was supposedly "passing for white"? Others who had a Euro phenotype and identified as white but were claimed as "black" after death are Belle Da Costa Greene, The Healy Family (James, Francis, Michael, Alexander and sisters) and Jean Toomer. That's like asking why do Dominicans claim that their brethren with dark brown skin and obvious African ancestry are "indian" rather than "black"? Is that also a "dna lie"? This is a long held tradition in some latino social circles, and yes it's based on an ideology that deems "black" to be inferior. That doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the tradition anytime soon. :cry: Back to top odocoileus Mentor Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 311 } Location: Chatsworth, CA Posted: Mon 08 Jun 2009 18:13    Post subject: I don't recall any publication demonizing A. Broyard. His African ancestry and what this ancestry meant to his life and literary career were examined. It's commonplace in literary and biographical studies to look at a writer's ethnic background and the possible effects on his work. Vonnegut's German ancestry, Mailer's and Roth's Jewish ancestry etc. It would be poor scholarship to ignore Broyard's African ancestry and his familial ties to an African descended community. The same for Jean Toomer. Acknowledging the African ancestry of historical figures versus claiming them as black Americans is largely a question of semantics. To be scrupulously fair, every article written about the people you mentioned should have a footnote reading "He/she had African ancestry but was not part of the black American cultural/ethnic community. Back to top Powell SuperMentor Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2536 } Posted: Wed 10 Jun 2009 15:59    Post subject: Broyard odocoileus wrote: I don't recall any publication demonizing A. Broyard. Then you are totally divorced from reality or haven't much about him since his death. His African ancestry and what this ancestry meant to his life and literary career were examined. It's commonplace in literary and biographical studies to look at a writer's ethnic background and the possible effects on his work. Vonnegut's German ancestry, Mailer's and Roth's Jewish ancestry etc. It would be poor scholarship to ignore Broyard's African ancestry and his familial ties to an African descended community. The same for Jean Toomer. It is damned hard to find an article published about Broyard since his death that does NOT condemn him as a "black" who presumed to "pass as white" and was supposedly motivated by "self-hatred" and other nonsense. Acknowledging the African ancestry of historical figures versus claiming them as black Americans is largely a question of semantics. To be scrupulously fair, every article written about the people you mentioned should have a footnote reading "He/she had African ancestry but was not part of the black American cultural/ethnic community. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> History of the U.S. Color Line All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next Page 1 of 3 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group