Posted: Fri 10 Jul 2009 16:54 Post subject: Contemporary Attitudes Towards the One Drop Rule
I've read a lot of interesting historical information on the one drop rule, but I haven't seen any figures on contemporary American attitudes towards the racial identity of people with invisible African ancestry. Specifically, I'm wondering how, knowing their heritage, people would classify a mixed-race person like me who's somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8 black and otherwise white? Are there any figures on what percentage of the general population would describe me as black, white, or mixed?
Posted: Sat 11 Jul 2009 14:27 Post subject: Re: Contemporary Attitudes Towards the One Drop Rule
JoshH wrote:
I've read a lot of interesting historical information on the one drop rule, but I haven't seen any figures on contemporary American attitudes towards the racial identity of people with invisible African ancestry. Specifically, I'm wondering how, knowing their heritage, people would classify a mixed-race person like me who's somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8 black and otherwise white? Are there any figures on what percentage of the general population would describe me as black, white, or mixed?
I think it a safe bet that if you say nothing about your ancestry, no one would ever see you as anything but White. I, for example, have over 1/8 sub-Saharan ancestry and no one has ever seen me as anything but White unless I say something to the contrary.
I would also bet (although not as confidently) that even if you were to make your African ancestry public, but said that you self-identified as White anyway, most people in your presence would go along with your wishes. Most people are courteous face-to-face, after all.
Identity-politics zealots who insist that your are Black, like it or not, and a traitor to your race for being in denial, usually attack from the safety of the internet. Although they are vocal, my impression is that they are a minority of Americans. Most Americans do not care how you self-identify.
For the past 23 years or so, U.S. law courts litigating disputed "racial" classification have explicitly rejected the one-drop rule (as well as genetic admixture tests and African appearance, oddly enough). Instead, courts today see "race" as a form of community membership. If local Black leaders vouch for you, then you are Black. If not, then you are not.
What is confusing is the overwhelming consensus among academics publishing today, that the U.S. one-drop rule is strong and legally enforced. But the evidence for this consensus is nonexistent. It seems to be nothing more than unsubstantiated posturing in support of identity politics.
The lack of hard evidence regarding ODR support is a recurring theme in this website. Most members here think that some demographics support the ODR more than others. Many members here suspect that racialist zealots of every stripe are more prone to one-dropping. And a few members here (A.D. and myself for example) have a gut-feel that A-As tend more towards one-dropping than do Whites.
Unfortunately, no one has a shred of hard evidence one way or another. Do recent immigrants differ from older families? Do Hispanics differ from Asian-Americans? Do the elderly differ from the young? Do the poor differ from the middle-class? Do college graduates differ from high-school dropouts? Nobody knows. The suggestion that support of the ODR is worth studying is discouraged in colleges today. When the ODR stops being part of the academic political canon, curious people will begin to examine it. Until then, we are all guessing.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 03:27 Post subject: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
I will respond to Frank's comments but first let me say a few things:
* The ODR is dying rapidly. A study from 2007 on the perceived race of Barack Obama, shows that only 46% of White Americans believe in the ODR.
* A study I did in 2008 showed that 35% of Whites applied the ODR to a hypothetical White-acting Biracial. 8% accepted the person as White.
* Annecdotal experience of mine shows that most Whites are not willing to resist a White identity for Biracials in person. Also the ODR is consistently challenged by people of all Races with Blacks being the least likely to oppose it and Whites and Biracials the most likely.
==============================================
FRANKS WORD'S IN BOLD:
Most Americans do not care how you self-identify.
Just like they don't care what your sexual orientation, body-weight, or politics are right? Americans care very much about your self-identity. Most Whites do not accept Biracials as Whites. Most Blacks do not accept Biracials as non-Blacks. Most Asians do not accept Biracials as Asians. Blacks will still beat you up, terrorize you, and verbally assault you for claiming anything but Black, if you are a Biracial, particularly if you identify as White.
What is confusing is the overwhelming consensus among academics publishing today, that the U.S. one-drop rule is strong and legally enforced. But the evidence for this consensus is nonexistent. It seems to be nothing more than unsubstantiated posturing in support of identity politics.
Absolutely correct. Academia is the political slave of the guilty liberal White politicos masquerading as social scientists and their allies among the Black community leadership. They insist on propogating anti-White and anti-Biracial, pro-multiculturalist beliefs. I'd bet the causes are White shame, Black guilt-tripping, and anxiety that race differences are real, profound, and GENETIC. Maybe if we just pretend hard enough all our social troubles will just go away, right?
The lack of hard evidence regarding ODR support is a recurring theme in this website.
THERE IS HARD EVIDENCE, but it has either been ignored, or has not been distilled from the original social science studies which gathered it.
And a few members here (A.D. and myself for example) have a gut-feel that A-As tend more towards one-dropping than do Whites.
Gut-feeling? More like an ulcer. Blacks pretend that Whites are responsible for the ODR both historically and presently in order to evade responsibility for their purposeful social engineering and to maintain their widely perceived position as victims of racist White aggression. So long as they are victims they have the power to silence opposition, you see, and that means getting concessions from Whites such as Wellfare, Affirmative Action, the right to act as race-relation authorities, Overrepresentation in the Media and film, the ability to think of their failures as the fault of WHITE PEOPLE, and I'm sure there are others.
Unfortunately, no one has a shred of hard evidence one way or another.
Not quite. I have a pilot study. I can also distill evidence from social studies on Biracials which should be fairly valid.
I have seen plenty of articles describing the descendants of Eston Hemings Jefferson as white, when they are mentioned by name. When lazy journalists are talking about ALL the real and alleged descendants of Sally Hemings, they tend to describe paternity issue as a disbute between Jefferson's "white" and "black" descendants.
I have seen no white attempts to describe Carol Channing as "black." Of course, no attempts were made on Anatole Broyard (whose Louisiana Creole heritage was an open secret) until he died. Unfortunately, his ignorant widow and children decided to cooperate with "one drop" fanatics like Henry Louis Gates, Jr. His daughter Bliss Broyard has apparently embraced the ODR, especially where her father is concerned. She now claims that she is not really white (but is willing to be described as "African American") even though she thought of herself as nothing else for most of her life.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 10:43 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
ImBack wrote:
Blacks will still beat you up, terrorize you, and verbally assault you for claiming anything but Black, if you are a Biracial, particularly if you identify as White.
This might have been your experience but I'm pretty sure most Biracials don't get beat up for claiming anything but Black. Maybe questioned or in some rare cases, verbally assaulted. But if a Biracial person is beaten up it's probably because the agressor was jealous or insecure and didn't like Biracials. I doubt if someone like this would be interested in claiming Biracials as Black. I think it would be more accurate to say that this happens to children or teenagers in certain envioronments (inner city black school, etc.). Kind of hard to picture a grown person getting bullied into being Black, verbally or otherwise.
ImBack wrote:
So long as they are victims they have the power to silence opposition, you see, and that means getting concessions from Whites such as Wellfare, Affirmative Action, the right to act as race-relation authorities, Overrepresentation in the Media and film, the ability to think of their failures as the fault of WHITE PEOPLE, and I'm sure there are others.
Overrepresentation in media and film? How so?
Anyway, to get back to the topic. I can only guess that most people, black, white or whatever would describe someone between 1/16 and 1/8 black as White. Although its fair to say that you're more likely to encounter a Black person who sees you as "Black". If we were living in the early 1900s, you'd undoubtedly meet more White people who see you as being just another Negro, but ethnocentric blacks learned how to use the ODR to their advantage long ago, and that might be one reason whites really don't adhere to it much.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 11:24 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
ImBack wrote:
A study I did in 2008 showed that 35% of Whites applied the ODR to a hypothetical White-acting Biracial. 8% accepted the person as White.
Please post it. It sounds interesting.
BlackHaze wrote:
Anyway, to get back to the topic. I can only guess that most people, black, white or whatever would describe someone between 1/16 and 1/8 black as White.
I agree. It is exceedingly unlikely that someone with only 6-13 percent SSA would be seen as anything other than White (unless she herself brings it up).
BlackHaze wrote:
ethnocentric blacks learned how to use the ODR to their advantage long ago, and that might be one reason whites really don't adhere to it much.
Interesting thought, but I understood that Black and White acceptance of the ODR moved in synch: rising together in in 1830s, falling in the 1860s, rising in the Jim Crow era, and falling since the 1970s. If Black acceptance had caused White rejection, would not the groups' attitudes have been out of phase (White rising as Black fell and vice-versa)?
Here are a couple of interesting links on the subject of attitudes with respect to racial identity. I don’t believe they were posted elsewhere on this site, but if so, sorry for the duplication.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 16:57 Post subject: Re: Contemporary Attitudes Towards the One Drop Rule
fwsweet wrote:
I think it a safe bet that if you say nothing about your ancestry, no one would ever see you as anything but White. I, for example, have over 1/8 sub-Saharan ancestry and no one has ever seen me as anything but White unless I say something to the contrary.
I would also bet (although not as confidently) that even if you were to make your African ancestry public, but said that you self-identified as White anyway, most people in your presence would go along with your wishes. Most people are courteous face-to-face, after all.
Identity-politics zealots who insist that your are Black, like it or not, and a traitor to your race for being in denial, usually attack from the safety of the internet. Although they are vocal, my impression is that they are a minority of Americans. Most Americans do not care how you self-identify.
Thanks, that reinforces my own impression.
Quote:
For the past 23 years or so, U.S. law courts litigating disputed "racial" classification have explicitly rejected the one-drop rule (as well as genetic admixture tests and African appearance, oddly enough). Instead, courts today see "race" as a form of community membership. If local Black leaders vouch for you, then you are Black. If not, then you are not.
Interesting. So they seem to be construing blackness as ethnicity, as determined by the black community. This seems almost an extension of those early court cases in which it was argued that someone with African ancestry was white because they were part of the white community.
Quote:
What is confusing is the overwhelming consensus among academics publishing today, that the U.S. one-drop rule is strong and legally enforced. But the evidence for this consensus is nonexistent. It seems to be nothing more than unsubstantiated posturing in support of identity politics.
The lack of hard evidence regarding ODR support is a recurring theme in this website. Most members here think that some demographics support the ODR more than others. Many members here suspect that racialist zealots of every stripe are more prone to one-dropping. And a few members here (A.D. and myself for example) have a gut-feel that A-As tend more towards one-dropping than do Whites.
Unfortunately, no one has a shred of hard evidence one way or another. Do recent immigrants differ from older families? Do Hispanics differ from Asian-Americans? Do the elderly differ from the young? Do the poor differ from the middle-class? Do college graduates differ from high-school dropouts? Nobody knows. The suggestion that support of the ODR is worth studying is discouraged in colleges today. When the ODR stops being part of the academic political canon, curious people will begin to examine it. Until then, we are all guessing.
I'm surprised to hear that. It seems such an obvious research topic.
The two inadequate polls I've come across (the informal ODR poll someone here is running and the Zogby Obama poll) seem to support your hypothesis that African-Americans are more likely than whites to apply the one drop rule, but given their flaws I'm not sure one can assign them much more weight than anecdotal evidence.
From a personal perspective, the adherence of some African-Americans to the ODR doesn't bother me the way it seems to bother others who may have felt personal pressure. I know that the ODR was imposed by the white community rather than the black one, and that it wasn't too many years ago that people like me had to ride on the back of the bus, that it's still a living memory for many. So while it feels a bit surreal to be referred to as black, given the evidence in the mirror, and I wouldn't refer to myself that way, I'm OK with others doing it.
I also have the tentative and non-scientific impression that some white Americans say and feel two different things when discussing the ODR or, perhaps, responding to polls like the Obama poll. Specifically, I've noticed a different and significantly stronger reaction when I've mentioned that I was part black than when I've mentioned other aspects of my ethnicity, being part Welsh, say, or even part Jewish. I have the sense that as with racism, most people are trying to do the right thing, but that they have to suppress habit and upbringing and a certain amount of prejudice in order to do so.
Finally, I think I've noticed another phenomenon in the attitudes of others, the rejection of ethnic mixing in the absence of prejudice Forex, I've been called a half breed, not because of my African ancestry (of which the other person wasn't aware) but because my father's side of the family was Jewish and my mother's Christian. I've had a few Jewish people tell me, in all earnestness, that one can't possibly be half Jewish. And at times I've even been disbelieved when I mentioned aspects of my ethnicity online, for no reason that I can detect other than that some people from ethnically homogeneous backgrounds can't wrap their minds around the fact that not all people segregate themselves along ethnic and racial lines . . .
Here are a couple of interesting links on the subject of attitudes with respect to racial identity. I don’t believe they were posted elsewhere on this site, but if so, sorry for the duplication.
I'd seen articles about the Zogby poll (though I haven't been able to find the actual results, which can be misleading since the articles typically only mention one option), but not the other site, which found that 62% of whites characterize Obama as biracial, multi-racial, or mulatto, 8% as black, 6% as white, 6% as NA or not sure. And what I find interesting about this is that, well, I don't believe it. One has only to read a newspaper article or listen to people speak to know that most whites refer to Obama as black.
I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy, but one hypothesis I'm toying with is that Americans believe both. Which is to say that they know that terms that denote biraciality are the most accurate or complete descriptions, and may be aware of and support the movement to discard the one drop rule as an inherently racist relic. So they choose those terms when they're polled. But at the same time, they continue to think of and refer to people who are part black as black.
After all, until very recently, that was the predominant convention here -- when I was young we never referred to visibly mixed-race kids as mixed or white, even when their predominant cultural heritage was white, e.g., they were raised by a single white parent. And while it puzzled us at first, we also learned that people who weren't visibly black could be considered black as well, or consider themselves black.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 17:54 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
ImBack wrote:
I will respond to Frank's comments but first let me say a few things:
* The ODR is dying rapidly. A study from 2007 on the perceived race of Barack Obama, shows that only 46% of White Americans believe in the ODR.
That corresponds to my impression, albeit I have the suspicion that the old assumptions aren't as dead as the polls suggest. Just look at the regularity with which reporters refer to Obama as "black."
The ODR figure in this study seems to be significantly higher than the figures I was just looking at in the Williams Identity Survey.
Quote:
* A study I did in 2008 showed that 35% of Whites applied the ODR to a hypothetical White-acting Biracial. 8% accepted the person as White.
Interesting. Why do you think there's a discrepancy between your figures and those of the Obama polls?
Quote:
Gut-feeling? More like an ulcer. Blacks pretend that Whites are responsible for the ODR both historically and presently in order to evade responsibility for their purposeful social engineering and to maintain their widely perceived position as victims of racist White aggression.
In what sense was the ODR not the responsibility of whites?
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 19:32 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
BlackHaze in quotes:
Quote:
This might have been your experience but I'm pretty sure most Biracials don't get beat up for claiming anything but Black.
What planet do you live on? More apologies for Black hatred and violence. Talk to any Biracial and you will find out they've been assaulted verbally and some of them physically.
Quote:
Maybe questioned or in some rare cases, verbally assaulted.
Wishfull thinking. You probably also believe that Blacks don't commit more crimes and that the Black-White IQ gap is a statistical farse.
Quote:
But if a Biracial person is beaten up it's probably because the agressor was jealous or insecure and didn't like Biracials.
Yes, that is how MOST BLACKS ARE.
Quote:
I doubt if someone like this would be interested in claiming Biracials as Black.
Then why do they do this? It's terrorism designed to enforce a social taboo. They want White Blood because they fear without it they will fail.
Quote:
I think it would be more accurate to say that this happens to children or teenagers in certain envioronments (inner city black school, etc.). Kind of hard to picture a grown person getting bullied into being Black, verbally or otherwise.
You obviously don't know ghetto Blacks (which are 60-70%) of them. Getting beat up is the least of my concerns with these folks. Im more worried about being shot.
Quote:
Overrepresentation in media and film? How so?
Blacks are 13% of the United States but appear at least 20% of the time in media advertisements and films ( in my estimation ). Everyone is afraid of them and in keeping with our egalitarian ideology, we have over-represented Blacks to appease their anger and our shame and guilt. That's how I see it anyway.
Quote:
Although its fair to say that you're more likely to encounter a Black person who sees you as "Black".
But at the same time, they continue to think of and refer to people who are part black as black.
That is flat out rediculous. Obama expressly expounds a PURE BLACK IDENTITY. He has never, not once, claimed a Biracial identity since running for pulic office. Why would Americans choose this designation for him if they did not feel it was correct? What is the purpose of being biracial is its not different from Black? If you believe that Black ancestry characterizes mixed people then Black is logically the proper choice, since it was CLEARLY explained that obama was mixed-race, and since there is NO convention for designating mixed-race people as "Biracials".
Quote:
After all, until very recently, that was the predominant convention here -- when I was young we never referred to visibly mixed-race kids as mixed or white, even when their predominant cultural heritage was white, e.g., they were raised by a single white parent.
Yes, you see that's the first problem.
Quote:
And while it puzzled us at first, we also learned that people who weren't visibly black could be considered black as well, or consider themselves black.
Yes, its funny how you learned to ACCEPT these people rather than to EXCLUDE THEM. Don't you find it curious that most minority groups virulently reject "half-breeds", especially ones who aggregate well with the dominant group?
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 20:00 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
Josh in Quotes:
Quote:
That corresponds to my impression, albeit I have the suspicion that the old assumptions aren't as dead as the polls suggest. Just look at the regularity with which reporters refer to Obama as "black."
Don't confuse social conventions for popular attitudes. America is highly homophobic but the degree of homophobia that actually exists is not readily apparent in the popular media.
Quote:
Interesting. Why do you think there's a discrepancy between your figures and those of the Obama polls?
Probably because the website I used represented a non-random sample in some fashion. What it shows is that there are SOME Whites who accept us. It's really not valid as a quantitative analysis.
Quote:
In what sense was the ODR not the responsibility of whites?
Everything wrong in this country is the responsibility of Whites because its our country, and we have to manage it properly. However, the ODR while a tool of White taboo enforcement, was also utilized by Blacks even more virulently, for the same purpose. Both parties are guilty.
That is flat out rediculous. Obama expressly expounds a PURE BLACK IDENTITY. He has never, not once, claimed a Biracial identity since running for pulic office. Why would Americans choose this designation for him if they did not feel it was correct? What is the purpose of being biracial is its not different from Black? If you believe that Black ancestry characterizes mixed people then Black is logically the proper choice, since it was CLEARLY explained that obama was mixed-race, and since there is NO convention for designating mixed-race people as "Biracials".
Most white people couldn't care less how Obama self-identifies.
ImBack wrote:
Quote:
And while it puzzled us at first, we also learned that people who weren't visibly black could be considered black as well, or consider themselves black.
Yes, its funny how you learned to ACCEPT these people rather than to EXCLUDE THEM. Don't you find it curious that most minority groups virulently reject "half-breeds", especially ones who aggregate well with the dominant group?
But Blacks claim people who aren't even Negros! (Biracials, Multiracials, Egyptians, Southern Indians, New Guineans). Rather rediculous really.
The kids to which I was referring were white.
The ODR was originally imposed by white society, not black. And I've known a lot of people from a lot of races who were confused about the specifics of race. Arguably, before the advent of DNA testing, pretty much everybody was.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 20:55 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
ImBack wrote:
Josh in Quotes:
Quote:
That corresponds to my impression, albeit I have the suspicion that the old assumptions aren't as dead as the polls suggest. Just look at the regularity with which reporters refer to Obama as "black."
Don't confuse social conventions for popular attitudes. America is highly homophobic but the degree of homophobia that actually exists is not readily apparent in the popular media.
Sure, but in this case, I don't think I've seen any evidence that there's a discrepancy. I suspect that most of those reporters would check off "multiracial" on a survey just as the general populace did. I'd probably do the same thing myself -- I've referred to Obama as "black" many times, because the context made the term appropriate (will white Americans vote for a black man, etc.) But if someone were to ask me what term best describes him, I'd say biracial.
Quote:
Interesting. Why do you think there's a discrepancy between your figures and those of the Obama polls?
Quote:
Probably because the website I used represented a non-random sample in some fashion. What it shows is that there are SOME Whites who accept us. It's really not valid as a quantitative analysis.
OK, I have the same problem with forex the informal poll that someone here made and the comments I see on sites that discuss this. There's a serious problem with sample skew, I find it hard to draw even ad hoc inferences.
ImBack wrote:
Quote:
In what sense was the ODR not the responsibility of whites?
Everything wrong in this country is the responsibility of Whites because its our country, and we have to manage it properly. However, the ODR while a tool of White taboo enforcement, was also utilized by Blacks even more virulently, for the same purpose. Both parties are guilty.
While I don't deny that blacks have sometimes misused the ODR, I still shrink from comparing the institutions of Jim Crow to contemporary black attitudes, particularly since I see the latter as essentially a consequence of the former.
The ODR was originally imposed by white society, not black. And I've known a lot of people from a lot of races who were confused about the specifics of race. Arguably, before the advent of DNA testing, pretty much everybody was.
Really? You need to read frank's essays then. The ODR was adopted most fanatically by Blacks at its very inception in the 1830's. More apologies?
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 21:04 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
ImBack wrote:
Quote:
But if a Biracial person is beaten up it's probably because the agressor was jealous or insecure and didn't like Biracials.
Yes, that is how MOST BLACKS ARE.
That is a pretty nasty generalization, ImBack. Please re-read rule 2.7. First warning.
ImBack wrote:
Quote:
The ODR was originally imposed by white society, not black. And I've known a lot of people from a lot of races who were confused about the specifics of race. Arguably, before the advent of DNA testing, pretty much everybody was.
Really? You need to read frank's essays then. The ODR was adopted most fanatically by Blacks at its very inception in the 1830's. More apologies?
According to my research, the first appearance of the notion of invisible "Blackness" was a panicky White reaction to the Nat Turner incident, when due to a confluence of three events, White Americans became fearful that A-As were plotting massacre. Specifically, many Whites feared that some murderous Blacks were masquerading as Whites.
The African-American enthopolitical community then embraced the notion of invisible "Blackness" in order to enhance and enforce solidarity against other hostile ethnic groups. (Ethnicities resembled gangs at the time.)
I doubt that anyone at the time could have possibly foreseen its use in the Jim Crow era.
Last edited by fwsweet on Sun 12 Jul 2009 21:10; edited 1 time in total
While I don't deny that blacks have sometimes misused the ODR, I still shrink from comparing the institutions of Jim Crow to contemporary black attitudes, particularly since I see the latter as essentially a consequence of the former.
That's where you are mistaken my friend. Blacks have supported the social denigration of multiracials since the 17th century, at least. Jim Crow has nothing to do with it. Blacks haven't sometimes misused the ODR. Blacks routinely missuse the ODR.
*WHY ARE BLACKS THE OFFICIAL SPOKESPEOPLE OF THE ODR?
*WHY DO ODR DENOUNCIATIONS USUALLY BEGIN WITH BLACKS?
*WHY DO BLACKS ARGUE TO YOUR FACE VIRULENTY AND WHITES DON'T ?
*WHY DO BLACKS PERPETRATE VIOLENCE AND VERBAL ABUSE AGAINST ANYONE WHO BREAKS THEIR TABOO?
*WHY DO BLACKS CONSIDER THE ODR ESSENTIAL TO THEIR IDENTITY?
If I had a penny for each of your apologies I'd be a millionaire.
Posted: Sun 12 Jul 2009 21:11 Post subject: Re: THE ONE DROP RULE IS DYING FAST.
fwsweet wrote:
ImBack wrote:
Quote:
But if a Biracial person is beaten up it's probably because the agressor was jealous or insecure and didn't like Biracials.
Yes, that is how MOST BLACKS ARE.
That is a pretty nasty generalization, ImBack. Please re-read rule 2.7. First warning.
Frank, you will probably ban me. I think I've gone too far. But I can't help myself but tell the truth. They can beat on us all they want but I can't take the gloves off apparently. I'm telling the truth. I'd get my *ss beaten or very well killed by the Blacks in my area for saying I was White. That's no joke. And I live in a "liberal" area. Great. I have to live in constant fear of these criminal maniacs and I can't even say the truth.
'
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