When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
Would you question his 4" pumps?
If he was my fam...most definitely.
Yeah until he drop too much money in your lap and possibly bought you a house
Prince pretty much started out in underground New Wave scenes and it work really well with his direction, he also said in an interview that the women loved it
Last edited by gemini072 on Fri 05 Feb 2010 16:03; edited 2 times in total
When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
It all depends, I know biracial people that look like Prince
and of course we all know of biracial people that we could say the same about "Oh he/she looks like any 'light skinned' black dude. Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe.
When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
It all depends, I know biracial people that look like Prince
and of course we all know of biracial people that we could say the same about "Oh he/she looks like any 'light skinned' black dude. Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe.
In the 80's I thought Prince looked like my Italian/Geechee cousin and assumed that he could pass for his younger twin, but later when i realized how tall he was I laughed because height wise they are polar oppoosites. Prince is like 4'6" and my cousin is 6'4".
When he is in context, next to his family...he looks like any "light skin" black dude...if I saw him at my family reunion and he said "Oh I'm a cousin from..." I had never met, I would not question it.
It all depends, I know biracial people that look like Prince
and of course we all know of biracial people that we could say the same about "Oh he/she looks like any 'light skinned' black dude. Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe.
In the 80's I thought Prince looked like my Italian/Geechee cousin and assumed that he could pass for his younger twin, but later when i realized how tall he was I laughed because height wise they are polar oppoosites. Prince is like 4'6" and my cousin is 6'4".
lol yeah Prince is down there, it's 5'2" - 5'4" out of heals
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 {Posts: 17 } Location: London, UK
Posted: Sun 02 Aug 2009 14:23 Post subject:
Dragon Horse wrote:
EraMera wrote:
To me, Prince looks anything but "black" or "African-American"
If you are in London than your view of what is "African American" is likely limited.
I am sure there are plenty of AA who'd agree with me and that there is no general consensus of how "white" an African American has to be.
I am amazed by all these people who are not "black" or look remotely african , who will claim they are "African American". They are entitled to their opinion , of course but Don't you think , they should also celebrate/claim their "other part", the white one, the one that made them look they way they do?
Anyway, Does Prince think he's AA or Black? Apparently not.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Sun 02 Aug 2009 16:41 Post subject:
EraMera wrote:
Dragon Horse wrote:
EraMera wrote:
To me, Prince looks anything but "black" or "African-American"
If you are in London than your view of what is "African American" is likely limited.
I am sure there are plenty of AA who'd agree with me and that there is no general consensus of how "white" an African American has to be.
I am amazed by all these people who are not "black" or look remotely african , who will claim they are "African American". They are entitled to their opinion , of course but Don't you think , they should also celebrate/claim their "other part", the white one, the one that made them look they way they do?
Anyway, Does Prince think he's AA or Black? Apparently not.
If Prince thinks he is black or not, is inconclusive, he has not made a definitive statement.
As for what is an AA or not and what is "black" in the American context...please tell me what level of admixture in your opinion makes someone none black when almost all AA's are mixed to some extent with whites and Native Americans?
What is the dividing line you want to group people by?
If you are going purely by what "you think" someone is, then what is "white"? Please define a "white person" by appearance and then tell me when someone is not "white" and should consider themselves "multiracial, biracial"?
People, at least in my experience, are not primarily identifying by "appearance" unless the appearance is so extreme outside the range most people think is "African American"...people are identifying with the culture they grew up in.
If you grow up in a home where your mother or father and the other parent is black, I can easily see how someone would feel a need or a pull to not take sides and to consider themselves something "inbetween"...
That is different from someone like Beyonce who grew up with two black identified parents, who had mostly black (African American) friends...she will mostly likely identify as black (African American) not because she sees a Mandika in the mirror but because that is how she was acculturated.
No one here cares if someone looks "African", not in my experience, I think most African Americans don't use "looking like an African (whatever that means) as a yard stick for their identity. We've been separated from Africa (most of us) for several hundred years, I think most African Americans don't think about Africa on a daily basis and pay some abstract homage to it...but that's about it.
for the record I don't care what Prince identifies as, but to say one "thinks one ought to" or "people should" or "i find it odd that people" implies a lot of judgment, as if you "know the truth" and have "the answer" and can "define someone" better than they can define themselves, to me that is arrogant.
If you learn anything from the research Frank has gathered about American racial history it is that what is "black" or "white" has historically been subject to change and never just depended on appearance.
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 {Posts: 17 } Location: London, UK
Posted: Mon 03 Aug 2009 20:05 Post subject:
Hi
I am not judging anyone here and certainly not Prince and as far as I understood, he hasn't indentified himself as a black person or AA.
I just gave my opinion on the issue "Is Prince Black?"
Also, contrary to what you stated, it's about appearance, otherwise no one would have ever posted this thread.
Prince does not "look like" Brad Pitt so according to the ODR, someone would wonder whether Prince thinks he's black.
Also, I read Frank's research and all the info posted about the History of AAs , the ODR and...etc.. my opinion (it's only my opinion) is that some black people in the US perpetuate the ODR (this thread is an example).
he had a very integrated upbring
from friends to musical styles, also growing up where he did it was predominately white
He also talked about how his mother, who he said could pass at times, affected how he thought of himself racially
He had/has a wide range of friends/musicians but I think his attraction(not just sexual) to women who are mixed tells a lot about how he sees himself
When he met Vanity ie Denise Matthews he stated it was like looking at a reflection of himself
(girlfriend)Susan Moonsie bahamas MGM (on the right) Vanity 6 protege
(girlfriend)Vanity ie Denise Matthews 1/2 German 1/2 Black (in the middle)
ex-protege
(girlfriend)Jill Jones 1/2 Italian 1/2 Black (on the left) was the waitress in the movie Purple Rain, (studio/live singer and ex protege)
(friends/supposed dated)Sheila E creole/latin/black (drummer and ex protege)
(was engaged)Susannah Melvoin (euro american) twin sister of his guitarist Wendy, band member(singer) and ex protege:the Family
Last edited by gemini072 on Fri 05 Feb 2010 16:00; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Tue 04 Aug 2009 14:25 Post subject:
EraMera wrote:
Hi
I am not judging anyone here and certainly not Prince and as far as I understood, he hasn't indentified himself as a black person or AA.
I just gave my opinion on the issue "Is Prince Black?"
Also, contrary to what you stated, it's about appearance, otherwise no one would have ever posted this thread.
Prince does not "look like" Brad Pitt so according to the ODR, someone would wonder whether Prince thinks he's black.
Also, I read Frank's research and all the info posted about the History of AAs , the ODR and...etc.. my opinion (it's only my opinion) is that some black people in the US perpetuate the ODR (this thread is an example).
This is not perpetuating the ODR, at least not with me, I don't support it. You are correct many blacks do perpetuate it, but I would say, in general, most Americans of every race support it in one form of another and have for a long time, because it has become such a "cultural norm" in the last 100 years.
What I also don't support is others telling people how they should identify.
Frank's research also makes it clear, that race in America has never primarily about appearance.
You also never answered my question. Most African Americans are mixed race to some extent. So where would you draw the dividing line?
Also...who is "white"? Where is the dividing line? Please answer that.
My entire thing is, once you start to understand what "white" is, then you can understand what "black" is and finally you understand that all these categories are meaningless and instead of trying to argue about if prince is black, biracial, multiracial, etc.
How about arguing that Prince should not have to define himself by primitive racial categories created by 17th and 18th century racist to prove the Nordic "white man" was superior to everyone else on earth (including other Europeans).
The problem is not the ODR, it is the racial ideology that lead to it. Scientist have told us for at least 20 years, there are not human races. Race does not exist.
The idea of "race" was originally based on "science". We know that science was flawed and heavily bias, however we have not evolved as a society to catch up with our knowledge.
In 2009, we have people arguing about minutia of human variation and trying to group it in a category that has no meaning, because all human populations exist in a clin. When you think about it, it is actually comical.
So to me, it is like what Machiavelli said:
Quote:
“And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions and lukewarm (indifferent, uninterested) defenders in those who may do well under the new”.
People who are "white" do well under the current system so they don't want it changed. Blacks aren't doing as well, and many people who are mixed race or the parents of someone mixed race want their children to be 'white" for obvious reasons. Not all, but I think many.
That being said, these people are more focused on "getting into the in-group" than destroying the ignorant framework that established this social hierarchy to begin with. In other words, they want the benefit for themselves, that is it.
Frank and I have discussed this and he once said "that is commonsense"...I agree. I, unlike Frank, also think it is cowardly. Cowards cower, they don't' lead real change.
I just wish more folks would be honest.
My wife is Asian and I won't tell my kids they have to identify as black (although I will tell them, depending on what they look like most folks will identify them as such and what that means in this society)...that being said, I'm also going to teach them that all of this is asinine and the history of it. You can't change a system by working in it, when it was not made to benefit you to begin with.
In some ways though, I do have to agree with Frank, about it being "common sense" but for religious issues, in most societies anywhere in the world the minority, especially the new immigrant wants to become part of the mainstream. It is normal, there is a centrifugal force, but the problem in America is one group created a barrier for various social-economic reasons and they made another a permanent out-group. This sets up a situation like above...
Last edited by Dragon Horse on Tue 04 Aug 2009 14:37; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Tue 04 Aug 2009 14:28 Post subject:
gemini072 wrote:
According to interviews with Prince
he had a very integrated upbring
from friends to musical styles, also growing up where he did it was predominately white
He also talked about how his mother, who he said could pass at times, affected how he thought of himself racially
He had/has a wide range of friends/musicians but I think his attraction(not just sexual) to women who are mixed tells a lot about how he sees himself
When he met Vanity ie Denise Matthews he stated it was like looking at a reflection of himself
Susan Moonsie bahamas MGM
Vanity ie Denise Matthews 1/2 German 1/2 Black
Jill Jones 1/2 Italian 1/2 Black
Sheila E creole/latin/black
Susannah Melvoin
Possibly, but you can say the same thing about "light skin blacks" who "marry light skin blacks" but if you told them they were not "black" would curse you. We have a long history of this, even during the civil rights movement. Many of the "brown paper bag testers" were light skin, many could pass but most were very much identified as "black" something that seems to drive Powell nuts.
Then again, my wife is Asian, and I often tell people she is a mirror image of me. LOL...I don't feel Asian, it all depends. My mother was also "light skinned" and I am not, if I dated mostly women who "looked like" my mother, would that be odd, would it necessarily speak to my personal identity? Maybe or maybe not.
My point is, we just don't know. He has spoken enough on the issue. I imagine being wealthy and somewhat isolated from society, he probably doesn't think about it much.
Instead of asking if Prince is black, you should ask "why is he not white"? Forget "multiracial" or "biracial" why is he not white? Why can't he be?
Starting at 19:10 minutes, he talks about the black community somewhat...
He said in the state of the black union, when he was watching, what Dick Gregory said "effects all of us" and "white folks" need to here it so he shows it to his wife friends.
The way it was worded sounds to me like he doesn't consider himself white.
What about black or biracial?
Well, I found this interview with Spike Lee:
Pg. 1
Quote:
TA: Yes. He also has a reverence for life. He seems to be a righteous soul and is focused as to what he is on earth for. Those are some of the things we talked about - what we as black people are supposed to represent during this time period.
and
Pg. 2
Quote:
SL: Let me ask you this: Why don't African-American artists own their own masters? Is it because we don't have the right lawyers?
TA: I think we can get the right lawyers, but I think we all need to change our mind-set and go in specifically alter that [ownership of master recordings] and not just take the pink Cadillac. Then you will see change. It is befuddling how other people own their masters. I guess it's who you know and what deal you make.
This is when he was calling himself "The Artist Formerly Known As Prince"
That was in 1997, he was 40 years old then, about...
so I think the first post, the 2008 New Yorker Interview, it sounds like to me he was making a joke.
Prince often uses "we", "us" when talking about blacks. He also said on the Tavis Smiley show that he and Tavis hang out and talk about various African AMerican issues, watch the black summit, etc (as well as with more radical "race men"), I doubt these folks (I know Tavis won't) be that cool with him if he is saying he is "biracial"...
Now in this 10 year period he could have changed, people do change, but there is definitive evidence he believes he is "black", the other one is kind of inconclusive. We know both his parents also identified as black (although they were both very mixed, especially his mother)...
I honestly think this is a generational...if he had been born in 1970 or 1980, I would bet there is a much higher chance would say he is mixed race.
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 {Posts: 17 } Location: London, UK
Posted: Wed 05 Aug 2009 20:50 Post subject:
Dragon Horse wrote:
You also never answered my question. Most African Americans are mixed race to some extent. So where would you draw the dividing line?
Also...who is "white"? Where is the dividing line? Please answer that.
My entire thing is, once you start to understand what "white" is, then you can understand what "black" is and finally you understand that all these categories are meaningless and instead of trying to argue about if prince is black, biracial, multiracial, etc.
How about arguing that Prince should not have to define himself by primitive racial categories created by 17th and 18th century racist to prove the Nordic "white man" was superior to everyone else on earth (including other Europeans).
The problem is not the ODR, it is the racial ideology that lead to it. Scientist have told us for at least 20 years, there are not human races. Race does not exist.
My wife is Asian and I won't tell my kids they have to identify as black (although I will tell them, depending on what they look like most folks will identify them as such and what that means in this society)...that being said, I'm also going to teach them that all of this is asinine and the history of it. You can't change a system by working in it, when it was not made to benefit you to begin with.
Sorry for not answering your question earler on.
Where would I draw the dividing line? Well, to start, I would not call somone whose skin colour is not black, a "black person" (e.g: Prince)
That is my opinion and sorry if I am offending anyone.
IF most AAs are mixed raced, I think they should call themselves what they are: "mixed race" or bi-racial, Of course, I respect what anynone will call himself or herself.
I am aware it goes beyond skin colour in the US because of their History and Halle Berry calling herself "black" is a good example.
But isn't time to acknowledge that all these labels are, to start with, "inaccurate" (black doesn't mean black anymore) and for AAs to embrace their heritage (the white one).
For understanding what white is, there is nothing to understand, white is white and black is black, and beyond these two colours, there are plenty of other identifications "brown" for example or the multitude exotic colours used by Brazilians who are definitely more "accurate" in the racial representations of people (compared to Americans)
As for myself, I define myself as Africain not black because obviously my skin colour is not black so why on Earth would I call myself "black", if I have to choose a skin coulour, I'd go for "brown".. at least I am trying to be precise.
My point is , from the begining , the old racial categorisations of "black/white/yellow" were flawed because they did not take account of the diversity of the Human race, and the fact there were more "colours" than the originals....
My understanding of what I read on this website, is in the US, time has stopped (for some people) on these 2 categories : Black and White. No in-between and if they are , some people pressured them to indentify themselves as "black".
My husband is white and I will tell my children not to indentify as black because they will be denying their white part and if they have to pick a colour, well, they should be as precise as possible.
Has anyone pondered on the fact that the US' classification (Natives/Black or AA/White/Latino) has transformed US society's views on African-Americans?
if there was an extra box to be ticked and that says "Mixed/Bi-racial", it would be more correct and logical (Halle Berry and Prince would have chosen that definition which is a better "representation" of what they truly are).
The ODR put all bi-racial people under the "black or AA" definition, why is still the case after 100 years?
Do you think some members of the African-American community are happy of that situation, that they rather keep bi-racial people under the classification of "black or AA" ?
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Thu 06 Aug 2009 18:56 Post subject:
I apologize ahead of time, but this will be along post.
I think we should not have racial classifications per se. Instead we should have "visible and invisible minorities". When we speak about people by group it should be "ethnicity" not "race" because race is a fallacy. I don't feel I have anything in common with a Dinka, I don't even feel I look like one, why should I be grouped with one? Because some Northern European from the 18th century said I should? LOL
As far as "black skin"...I'm not sure what that is. Everyone in Africa does not have the same skin color. I don't know what "black" is. So is a Hutu the same race as a Dinka and is the Dinka the same as a Amhara from Ethiopia? They sure don't look the same.
Is a white man from Greece the same color as an Irishman? Does the average Greek look more like an Armenian or an Arab or does he look like a Redhead Scot?
I recently read of a Greek guy being attacked in Eastern Europe because he was thought to be an Arab or Turk...amazing how they couldn't tell he was European.
In America, Indians are considered Asians, so are Afghans, same as my Japanese wife. However Persians from Iran (right next to Afghanistan) are "white" according to the U.S. government. Does my Japanese wife look like a Cambodian? Look up some pictures of Japanese and Cambodians...trust me my wife doesn't think Cambodians are "her people".
Does any of this make sense? What does my wife have in common with an Indian besides Buddhism?
What is white ancestry? What is white culture? You said you want your kids to know and recognize both sides of their ancestry. If they lived in America white can be anything from Icelandic to Persian. What exactly about "white" do they need to recognize? It has no meaning. Does a Englishman and a German have the same culture, same ancestry? What about a Russian and an Spaniard?
As far as categories on the census, you can pick more than one, which I would assume means "multiracial/biracial".
The problem with multiracial/biracial to me is that a larger % of whites and blacks are multiracial. There are many whites who will admit they are 1/4 Native American for example, but still consider themselves white. There are some "whites" who are half East Asian and some "Asians" who are half white...they just choose to identify as such for their own reasons.
The reason there is no multiracial/biracial category, in my opinion is simple.
There is no community as such, has not been in decades. So their will never be a large focused political movement that forces politicians to move over the wants and desires of others.
Unlike South Africa, and other colonized areas like India, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Macao there was no "middle man" mixed race groups that the colonizers used to as a buffer between the white colonizers and the African or Asian colonized.
Due to colonial social and economic interest these people became a "caste" to themselves with their own unique cultures, but they tended to be more like the colonizers than the colonized, and their father's tended to be from the colonizer group, mother from the colonized group.
There is no such group in America. There is nothing particularly that binds people who are mixed race here...most white/Asian mixes feel little affinity for a white/black mix per se, black/asian mixes, Hispanics (almost all mixed race) don't naturally congregate socially with each other in America, not anymore than anyone else congregates, and they are not forced to do so by any historic precedent.
Because of this, the few who do care to get together are primarily black/white mixes and the parents of such, but when you look at the whole, those who do choose to be politically active for some type of category are few.
Therefore no one really cares about them, there are far more blacks (although I would argue the majority of blacks really don't think about this issue or care) that have an interest to keep them all blacks and most whites go along with it (although some also fully support the one-drop rule as well)...so there you have it.
This is why I think the people who are fighting for this type of thing are not getting anywhere and likely won't unless they change their strategy. My guess is many won't because in my option based on what I have seen too many are focused on hating black ancestry and trying to move to white (something that various white ethnic groups did to become white as was pointed out by Frank with the Irish, not saying they had black ancestry saying the hating black part ). Alienating black folks won't help them because it will only make some blacks try harder to keep them down out of spite (crabs in a barrel)...
So if these people believe that blacks racial identity politics folks are their primary barrier and whites will be indifferent or largely go alone if black folks don't make a major issue, than the way to go is clear to me, but apparently some are oblivious to anything but fighting and hating...oh well, I don't care.
My kids will be Asian and black (boxes I will check) and "other" when I can. That's good enough for me, I don't care about adding other boxes. I don't see the point, as I said, the better option is to work to get rid of the system. Race does not exist, human subspecies do not exist. It is fantasy, their is nothing scientific about it. This is the root of the problem and until we deal with that all this arguing about "adjusting a lie" is a waste of time.
Um. Guys. This is drifting more and more into expressions of "should" and "desirable" and the like. Such value judgments are better suited to the two political advocacy forums. Either Tyrone or I would both be happy to transfer or split the thread to one of those forums--probably "Issues for Biracial Americans"--so that you can continue the excellent discussion. Alternatively, if we leave it here, you might want to stick more to evidence of the composer's own thoughts on self-identity rather than on your own preferences.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 15:40 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Um. Guys. This is drifting more and more into expressions of "should" and "desirable" and the like. Such value judgments are better suited to the two political advocacy forums. Either Tyrone or I would both be happy to transfer or split the thread to one of those forums--probably "Issues for Biracial Americans"--so that you can continue the excellent discussion. Alternatively, if we leave it here, you might want to stick more to evidence of the composer's own thoughts on self-identity rather than on your own preferences.
Anyway, Does Prince think he's AA or Black? Apparently not.
I believe he has carefully crafted an ambiguous persona, sexually (at least in the beginning), racially, and musically, that has served him well for many years.
Watching "Purple Rain" one would get the impression that Prince was the stereotypical strange biracial person who came from a combative black male/white female interracial relationship, but in actuality he is not biracial.
Since that time though he has given the impression, at least to me, that he considers himself black, at least when he feels like it.
Anyway, Does Prince think he's AA or Black? Apparently not.
I believe he has carefully crafted an ambiguous persona, sexually (at least in the beginning), racially, and musically, that has served him well for many years.
Watching "Purple Rain" one would get the impression that Prince was the stereotypical strange biracial person who came from a combative black male/white female interracial relationship, but in actuality he is not biracial.
Since that time though he has given the impression, at least to me, that he considers himself black, at least when he feels like it.
He still plays both sides
I think his blackness is more like 'black solidarity?'
He's gotten into some religious ideology:Jehovahs Witness & Egyptology
'
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