No. I think she self-identifies as non-White because it is politically expedient.
How come Irish Americans like Ted Kennedy, Italian Americans like Rudy Giuliani, and German Americans like Henry Kissinger for example do not identify themselves as Nonwhite in order to be politically expedient.
How come Irish Americans like Ted Kennedy, Italian Americans like Rudy Giuliani, and German Americans like Henry Kissinger for example do not identify themselves as Nonwhite in order to be politically expedient.
Every non-English immigrant group to the United States was initially seen as a non-White "race." With one exception, every group's descendants then became accepted as a White "ethnicity" by virtually all White Americans within two or three generations. The groups you mention became White many years ago: German-Americans in the 1820s, Irish-Americans in the 1890s, Italian-Americans in the 1920s, etc. Americans today see those groups as White "ethnicities." They are no longer seen as non-White "races." This is why it is no longer politically advantageous for their members to claim a non-White ethnopolitical status.
For an overview, read The "Race" Notion's Role in Ethnic Assimilation. For a detailed account of one specific ethnicity, read Noel Ignatiev, How the Irish Became White (New York: Routledge, 1995) or Karen Brodkin, How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1998).
every group's descendants then became accepted as a White "ethnicity" by virtually all White Americans within two or three generations.
Are Puerto Ricans accepted as a White ethnicity by virtually all White Americans ?
Quote:
it is no longer politically advantageous for their members to claim a non-White ethnopolitical status.
Why can't the same be said about Puerto Ricans ? Why is it still considered politically advantageous for members of Puerto Rican descent to claim a Nonwhite ethnopolitical status ?
Are Puerto Ricans accepted as a White ethnicity by virtually all White Americans ?
Puerto Ricans are in transition. A generation ago, the census recorded all of them as non-White. Today, 90 percent census-report themselves as White. It varies by region: in South Florida the answer would be "yes," in New York city it would be "not yet." It also varies by class and appearance: for an upper- or middle-class Euro-looking family, your answer is "yes." For an impoverished Afro-looking family, it would be "probably not." Nevertheless, I would definitely say that the vast majority of White Americans are polite and willing to follow each Puerto Rican's wishes as to his or her ethnopolitical group membership.
Baby Face Nelson wrote:
Why is it still considered politically advantageous for members of Puerto Rican descent to claim a Nonwhite ethnopolitical status ?
You are asking why occasions sometimes arise where non-Whiteness is useful. Such occasions are rare. 90 percent of Puerto Ricans do not consider it politically advantageous to be non-White most of the time. That is why they check off "White" on the census "race" question. But those who seek political careers among liberals sometimes find non-Whiteness useful. A good example would be someone appointed to SCOTUS by a Black president, or a teacher seeking academic tenure in humanities or history.
Pew Hispanic center reports that only 47% of Puerto Ricans in the U.S identified themselves as White in the 2000 census bureau.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/35.pdf
Where did you get your 90% figure from ?
You either mis-read or mis-reported the Pew study. Table2 says 47.2 percent of Puerto Ricans checked off "White" and only "White". Another 7.9 percent checked off "White" plus something else. And so, the percentage of Puerto Ricans who checked off "White" is 55.1 percent, not 47 percent. Please be more careful in the future.
My source for 90 percent is Clara E. Rodriguez, "Challenging Racial Hegemony: Puerto Ricans in the United States," in Race, ed. Steven Gregory and Roger Sanjek (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1994), 131-45.
If you are seriously interested in how Puerto Rican immigrants try to challenge or adjust to the bizarre U.S. "racial" dichotomy, I would recommend that you visit ipums.org, sign up, and download the raw data for yourself. It is not hard to do, they provide easy-to-follow instructions, and you can tabulate the detailed raw data from hundreds of thousands of individual families to see for yourself.
The discrepancy between 55 and 90 percent depends on how you count the 36-40 percent of Puerto Ricans who check off "other" and write in something that the researcher interprets as "White." For example, if the person checked off "other" and then wrote in "Caucasian," would you that count that as a vote for "White"? What if they checked "other" and wrote in "Spanish." What if they wrote in "Puerto Rican"? The point is that Puerto Rican immigrants have not yet internalized U.S. dichotomous racialism. Tabulating the dichotomous "racial" identity of people who have no concept of dichotomous "racial" identity is like trying to tabulate Mac versus Windows users in a population that has never seen a home computer.
It comes down to how you interpret the 36-40 percent who check off "other" and write something in. The Pew study explicitly focuses on how many checked off "other," no matter what they wrote in. And so, they report that 55.1 percent checked off "White" and 39.7 percent checked off "other." Clara Rodriguez's report, in contrast, focuses on how many checked off or wrote in something that could be interpreted as "White," so she reports the 90 percent figure. Again, you should download the raw data for yourself and make your own interpretation. It is not hard to do.
Incidentally, the problem may be going away in the future. The Congressional Black Caucus is demanding, and has been demanding for years, that the Census Bureau remove the "other" checkbox and forbid anyone from filling in any "race" other than the official ones. Their reason is that Hispanics are the only people who do that, and the Black Caucus argues that Hispanics are thus making a mockery of federal laws. "W" blew them off, but Obama has not yet revealed his position.
Posted: Mon 27 Jul 2009 05:21 Post subject: Census
fwsweet wrote:
Baby Face Nelson wrote:
Pew Hispanic center reports that only 47% of Puerto Ricans in the U.S identified themselves as White in the 2000 census bureau.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/35.pdf
Where did you get your 90% figure from ?
You either mis-read or mis-reported the Pew study. Table2 says 47.2 percent of Puerto Ricans checked off "White" and only "White". Another 7.9 percent checked off "White" plus something else. And so, the percentage of Puerto Ricans who checked off "White" is 55.1 percent, not 47 percent. Please be more careful in the future.
My source for 90 percent is Clara E. Rodriguez, "Challenging Racial Hegemony: Puerto Ricans in the United States," in Race, ed. Steven Gregory and Roger Sanjek (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1994), 131-45.
If you are seriously interested in how Puerto Rican immigrants try to challenge or adjust to the bizarre U.S. "racial" dichotomy, I would recommend that you visit ipums.org, sign up, and download the raw data for yourself. It is not hard to do, they provide easy-to-follow instructions, and you can tabulate the detailed raw data from hundreds of thousands of individual families to see for yourself.
The discrepancy between 55 and 90 percent depends on how you count the 36-40 percent of Puerto Ricans who check off "other" and write in something that the researcher interprets as "White." For example, if the person checked off "other" and then wrote in "Caucasian," would you that count that as a vote for "White"? What if they checked "other" and wrote in "Spanish." What if they wrote in "Puerto Rican"? The point is that Puerto Rican immigrants have not yet internalized U.S. dichotomous racialism. Tabulating the dichotomous "racial" identity of people who have no concept of dichotomous "racial" identity is like trying to tabulate Mac versus Windows users in a population that has never seen a home computer.
It comes down to how you interpret the 36-40 percent who check off "other" and write something in. The Pew study explicitly focuses on how many checked off "other," no matter what they wrote in. And so, they report that 55.1 percent checked off "White" and 39.7 percent checked off "other." Clara Rodriguez's report, in contrast, focuses on how many checked off or wrote in something that could be interpreted as "White," so she reports the 90 percent figure. Again, you should download the raw data for yourself and make your own interpretation. It is not hard to do.
Incidentally, the problem may be going away in the future. The Congressional Black Caucus is demanding, and has been demanding for years, that the Census Bureau remove the "other" checkbox and forbid anyone from filling in any "race" other than the official ones. Their reason is that Hispanics are the only people who do that, and the Black Caucus argues that Hispanics are thus making a mockery of federal laws. "W" blew them off, but Obama has not yet revealed his position.
That demand by the Congressional Black Caucus sure hasn't been reported in the press. Have the Hispanics in Congress responded or opposed them?
Posted: Mon 03 Aug 2009 12:25 Post subject: Re: Census
Powell wrote:
That demand by the Congressional Black Caucus sure hasn't been reported in the press. Have the Hispanics in Congress responded or opposed them?
I do not know. My information source is the minutes of a meeting held at the Census Bureau, which several congressmen and Ward attended. I thought that it was you who sent it to me. The Bureau staffers said that it was to late to change the forms for 2010 and the discussion moved on to other topics.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 03 Aug 2009 13:47 Post subject:
Frank:
Just a question. Do you think that Mexicans will reverse this.
Mexicans are the fastest growing Hispanic community (to my knowledge) and the largest. In California and in Texas they tend not to see themselves as "white" (well the majority) In Cali, as you have mentioned, many (especially in the lower classes that were born here) focus heavily on Aztec ancestry.
Do you think that if the Mexican population increases this will stunt other Hispanic groups "turning white"...meaning Mexican Americans will increasing attempt to speak for all Hispanics...?
Mexicans are the fastest growing Hispanic community (to my knowledge) and the largest. In California and in Texas they tend not to see themselves as "white" (well the majority) In Cali, as you have mentioned, many (especially in the lower classes that were born here) focus heavily on Aztec ancestry.
Do you think that if the Mexican population increases this will stunt other Hispanic groups "turning white"...meaning Mexican Americans will increasing attempt to speak for all Hispanics...?
Beats hell out of me. It is true that many if not most "Chicanos" seem to adopt a "neo-Aztec" self-identity. But then most "Spanish" in Arizona and New Mexico are insulted if you call them non-White, especially those who are economically, socially, and politically powerful.
My only insight come from studying 19th-century U.S. history. Everyone who suggested in 1760 that German-Americans might someday self-identify as White and be accepted as such was ridiculed. The same thing happened to Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Jewish Americans, and so forth. So far, no matter how non-White any given group started out, eventually they were accepted and re-defined themselves as White after a few generations (with one exception, of course).
In truth, I do not fully understand the underlying dynamics, so I cannot begin to guess whether the generational Whitening process will change in the future. I can say, however, that the fact that future Whitening of Chicanos seems bizarre and impossible to today's observers carries no weight with me. I saw the same incredulity about Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews, etc. Finally for what it is worth, Chicano exogamy is in the 30-40 percent range typical of all assimilating minorities. Keep in mind that once most of the mainstream acknowledges having "XXX" ancestry, that ancestry can no longer be seen as "Other."
[In truth, I do not fully understand the underlying dynamics, so I cannot begin to guess whether the generational Whitening process will change in the future. I can say, however, that the fact that future Whitening of Chicanos seems bizarre and impossible to today's observers carries no weight with me. I saw the same incredulity about Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews, etc. ."
These European groups are phenotypically "white looking" once stripped of ethnic traits, therefore not obviously different in apprearance from "white" Americans, whereas most Mexican Americans portray a mixed Spanish/Indigenous appearance and therefore stand out more, even when fully Americanized? It will be interesting to see how third generation Mexican Americans identify vs immigrants from Mexico.
These European groups are phenotypically "white looking"...
That is precisely my point. To you, with your background, upbringing, and the century in which you live, those European groups are "phenotypically white looking." But all this means is that they look white to you. I do not think that you are lying. I do not think that you are delusional. I truly believe that they look white to you. When Benjamin Franklin wrote that German Americans could never pass as white because they did not look white, I believe him also. I understand that in your mind, you are right and Franklin was wrong (lying, delusional, or mistaken). But to me you are both equally credible (or not).
These European groups are phenotypically "white looking"...
That is precisely my point. To you, with your background, upbringing, and the century in which you live, those European groups are "phenotypically white looking." But all this means is that they look white to you. I do not think that you are lying. I do not think that you are delusional. I truly believe that they look white to you. When Benjamin Franklin wrote that German Americans could never pass as white because they did not look white, I believe him also. I understand that in your mind, you are right and Franklin was wrong (lying, delusional, or mistaken). But to me you are both equally credible (or not).
Are Asians now called whites in the USA? They now outperform Americans of direct European ancestry in attending tertiary level institutions and do quite well in terms of family incomes and ocupational mobility. They however do not conform to what many in the USA might call "white looking" or "European" i.e., no obvious signs of non European ancestry.
I assume you mean east Asians, since Siberia, Israel, Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan are in Asia and yet their inhabitants have been classified as White in the U.S. more often than not for well over a century. Come to think of it, Caucasians (the inhabitants of the Caucasus) are Asians.
Yes, Chinese-Americans are seen as White in most of the U.S., especially in the south. For a brief summary, see the section titled "How do You Become White?" in The Race Notion's Role in Ethnic Assimilation. For details on the process by which the Chinese-American community came to become accepted as White, see James W. Loewen, The Mississippi Chinese: Between Black and White (Cambridge MA: Harvard University, 1971). More importantly, most of the offspring of mixed Asian-American Euro-American marriages (like Keanu Reeves, for instance) check off White (only) on the census. For details, see Harry H. L. Kitano and Roger Daniels, Asian Americans: Emerging Minorities, 2nd ed. (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice Hall, 1995).
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Thu 06 Aug 2009 19:06 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
caribj wrote:
These European groups are phenotypically "white looking"...
That is precisely my point. To you, with your background, upbringing, and the century in which you live, those European groups are "phenotypically white looking." But all this means is that they look white to you. I do not think that you are lying. I do not think that you are delusional. I truly believe that they look white to you. When Benjamin Franklin wrote that German Americans could never pass as white because they did not look white, I believe him also. I understand that in your mind, you are right and Franklin was wrong (lying, delusional, or mistaken). But to me you are both equally credible (or not).
We have discussed this before and I think it is more than that.
If I lived in Ben Franklin's time and I took a Welsh boy, a Scot, and an Irish, and a Northern German.
We know the last two would not be considered "white". Correct?
What if I took them and dressed them identical, would not allow them to speak and had Ben tell me which was one white and which one was not. Do you think he could tell the difference? How?
What features would he say were "none white"?
YOu might say...well the Irish man could have redhair and freckles, but so could the Welshman and the Scot, in fact Queen Victoria was a redhead and I'm pretty sure if asked Franklin would definitely consider her a white woman (maybe I'm wrong).
I say this because cultural context is important.
My wife and I shop at an Asian store all the time, it is Korean owned. Some times we go to a Chinese store by our gym as well. In each place people usually (not always) speak Korean and Chinese (respectively) to my Japanese wife.
When my wife lets them know she is Japanese they start saying "oh yes, you look Japanese...you act Japanese"...
How could they didn't know that 2 minutes before?
Now, lets take the example above. If I put an average Chinese, average Indian, and an average Greek boy.
SO we have a Chinese, Indian, Greek, Welsh, Scot, German, and Irish...
If I asked Ben to pick which two "whites"...
I would bet all the money I have that he would get it wrong. I also bet he would always say the Chinese, Indian were not white and probably not the Greek...but he would stumble on the German, Irish, Welsh, and Scot more often than not.
Now if you dressed them, allowed them to interact, and allowed them to talk (with an accent) I would bet serious money he would always get it right...(according to what was considered white in his time period).
Yes I know that Irish people were said by some to be ape like, have slopping forheads, etc. Seriously though.
Frank, can you tell me who is Irish, who is German, who is a Scot?
I snuck an Italian in there, I bet you can guess who. I also put a Lebanese man.
As far as Asians, in the Jim Crow South CaribJ, at least in Mississippi, it is true Chinese were considered white, Frank is right. That being said, if you questioned the locals "are these Chinese white like you..." the answer might be different. Or if you said "are they really white men...like Washington, Lincoln, Stonewall Jackson, Roosevelt" or some such thing they would say no, because the implication would be "Are they European?" or are they "Western European" or "Anglo-Saxon". That's my guess, but I can not prove that.
Frank is also right that a little over 50% of Asian/white mixed people consider themselves white.
But I would like to know how that correlates with what they look like.
Would this man be treated as white in American society?
He is half white, just like Keanue Reeves. His name is Mike Shinoda (Half white/Japanese).
What about Russel Wong? He is half white as well.
Now compare to Keanu Reeves:
Kristin Kreuk (half Dutch/Chinese)
If the KKK wanted to lynch someone that was not "pure white" and it was kind of getting dark outside and no one had a flashlight...who would get the rope? I have some ideas.
Then again Frank, Middle Eastern People are considered white in the U.S. Right? Do most Americans, in your opinion, consider Osama Bin Laden a white man? What if we asked them about the late Casey kasem.
I would imagine people would say Osama was not and Kasem was...but they are both Arabs. That's my guess.
If I lived in Ben Franklin's time and I took a Welsh boy, a Scot, and an Irish, and a Northern German. We know the last two would not be considered "white". Correct?
Yes, that is my understanding.
Dragon Horse wrote:
What if I took them and dressed them identical, would not allow them to speak and had Ben tell me which was one white and which one was not. Do you think he could tell the difference? How? What features would he say were "none white"?
I do not know. Franklin only gives two specifics. First, that Germans have too "swarthy" a complexion. Second, that "the English make the principle Body of White People on the Face of the Earth." (Not the Irish, Scots or Welsh--the English.)
Dragon Horse wrote:
Frank, can you tell me who is Irish, who is German, who is a Scot?
Not me! Hell, I am the guy to whom Mariah Carey looks White and Geraldo Rivera looks biracial. I am the worst possible judge.
Dragon Horse wrote:
But I would like to know how [self-identity of mixed Asian-Euro Americans] correlates with what they look like.
Good question, but I do not think that anyone has studied this. It seems plausible. In last night's Second Life discussion group meeting, one of the participants (an Afro-looking young woman) told us that she had checked off "White" on two job and school applications as an experiment, and that the bureaucrats in charge had "corrected" her self-identity to "Black" in both cases. We can conclude that appearance is obviously important. But just how important is hard to measure. I suggested that the next time she tries it, she should Spanishify her last name and speak with a Spanish accent.
Dragon Horse wrote:
Then again Frank, Middle Eastern People are considered white in the U.S. Right? Do most Americans, in your opinion, consider Osama Bin Laden a white man? What if we asked them about the late Casey kasem. I would imagine people would say Osama was not and Kasem was...but they are both Arabs. That's my guess.
I would guess the same. Similarly, an ambiguous-looking millionaire will likely be seen "whiter" than a pauper of the same complexion.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 15:50 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Dragon Horse wrote:
Frank, can you tell me who is Irish, who is German, who is a Scot?
Not me! Hell, I am the guy to whom Mariah Carey looks White and Geraldo Rivera looks biracial. I am the worst possible judge.
Dragon Horse wrote:
But I would like to know how [self-identity of mixed Asian-Euro Americans] correlates with what they look like.
Good question, but I do not think that anyone has studied this. It seems plausible. In last night's Second Life discussion group meeting, one of the participants (an Afro-looking young woman) told us that she had checked off "White" on two job and school applications as an experiment, and that the bureaucrats in charge had "corrected" her self-identity to "Black" in both cases. We can conclude that appearance is obviously important. But just how important is hard to measure. I suggested that the next time she tries it, she should Spanishify her last name and speak with a Spanish accent.
Dragon Horse wrote:
Then again Frank, Middle Eastern People are considered white in the U.S. Right? Do most Americans, in your opinion, consider Osama Bin Laden a white man? What if we asked them about the late Casey kasem. I would imagine people would say Osama was not and Kasem was...but they are both Arabs. That's my guess.
I would guess the same. Similarly, an ambiguous-looking millionaire will likely be seen "whiter" than a pauper of the same complexion.
LOL @ the Mariah Carey comment. I'm not always good at this stuff. I have often said that many mestizos look "white" and been corrected by "white, black, and Hispanic" people.
I pretty much agree with you on the rest. It would be an interesting study, but a difficult one. As you pointed out...different people see different things.
I had an interesting argument with a co-worker that said that Penelope Cruz was Hispanic and "not white". I told her that Cruz is from Spain and therefore white. My co-worker told me "Spanish" are not "white". I asked her if Christina Aguilar was white. She said "she looks white because her mother is white". I told her I have been to Guadalajara and there are many white people who look as white as anyone white man at our work. She said, "they aren't really white..."
My co-worker was a Southern white woman from Texas. For her anyone who speaks Spanish as a native language was not "white", even if they were from Europe. Well she said "no really white". Even when I told her that Hispanics in America often mark "white" and "Hispanic/Latino" on the census, she said "wanting to be white does not make you white"...
Another example of how these issues make normally rational people think in bizarre ways. Christina Aguilar looks more Nordic than this "white Texan woman" who looked to me to have some Native American ancestry... This was in 2004 btw. So according to her, the EU has a non-white European country as a member. I'm sure that would be news to Spaniards.
Joined: 03 Jan 2006 {Posts: 9 } Location: West Coast
Posted: Sat 08 Aug 2009 21:12 Post subject:
People are truly bizarre on this issue of what is and is not "white". Then for some, it is a matter of self identification, and comfort.
My mother, the child of a mother whose family "passed" in the late 1800s would have a fit rather than admit, but the rest of us of later generations have mostly married and partnered with people of darker skin tones, and so now we go with multi-racial or when we want to get funny, "Human".
And thanks for the lovely pictures. Handsome/Beautiful people...
I had thought Keeanu Reeves was maybe "Hawaii" mix or other Islander from the pacific, but it wasn't issue enough to check. Russel Wong, OH MY GOODNESS, now that man has to be one of the planet's most beautiful, fine, magnificent looking males.
Depends on who is asking and the person being asked looks like.
Jennifer Lopez is famous and could not and has not denouced being Puerto Rican . Same for Mexican American Eva Longoria.
They are casted in "Ethnic" roles .
However,they play as White Americans in movies romatically partnered up with White Americans.
Eva Longoria=The Young & The Restless, which
was Longoria's frist major , big role.
=Over Her Dead Body
Jennifer Lopez=Made In Manhattan
The Wedding Planner
These actresse's are passable casted in these roles for the mass audience to see. Lopez and Longoria played as White or something close to it in other roles too. You won't find an actress like Sanaa Lathan casted in these roles.
There are many other roles which could have gone to a White actress, but these ladies were casted in the role.
Once again, these ladies, do not downplay their ethnicity.
They just look like they do. They cannot help how they look.
I am fans of theirs . I like Lopez and Longoria.
My old saying is true here -You are what you are BUT you are what you LOOK like because that is what society will take you as.
Personal life- Jennifer Lopez has dated, lived with, separated, married, been engaged to, been unegaged to , divorced, LOL, all of them: Latino, Black,White,Puerto Rican, Something mixed .
Personal life-Longoria is married to Tony Parker who is mixed.
I think her first husband was White American.
Last edited by Creole GAL on Sat 12 Sep 2009 19:26; edited 1 time in total
FWIW, Mary Lee and I watched Eagle Eye last night and I recognized the Air Force intelligence agent as the same actress who played the role of the lost gem in Men In Black II. I thought she was a knockout in MIB-II, so I looked her up in IMDB. Her name is Rosario Dawson and apparently she is of Puerto Rican (and Cuban) ancestry.
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I told her I have been to Guadalajara and there are many white people who look as white as anyone white man at our work. She said, "they aren't really white..." 
This was in 2004 btw. So according to her, the EU has a non-white European country as a member.