Theres a famous Norman Rockwell painting titled Freedom of Speech, depicting an idealized American town meeting. The painting, part of a series illustrating F.D.R.s Four Freedoms, shows an ordinary citizen expressing an unpopular opinion. His neighbors obviously dont like what hes saying, but theyre letting him speak his mind.
Thats a far cry from what has been happening at recent town halls, where angry protesters some of them, with no apparent sense of irony, shouting This is America! have been drowning out, and in some cases threatening, members of Congress trying to talk about health reform.
Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But theres no comparison. Ive gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I cant find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.
And I cant find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.
So this is something new and ugly. Whats behind it?
Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, has compared the scenes at health care town halls to the Brooks Brothers riot in 2000 the demonstration that disrupted the vote count in Miami and arguably helped send George W. Bush to the White House. Portrayed at the time as local protesters, many of the rioters were actually G.O.P. staffers flown in from Washington.
But Mr. Gibbs is probably only half right. Yes, well-heeled interest groups are helping to organize the town hall mobs. Key organizers include two Astroturf (fake grass-roots) organizations: FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients Rights.
The latter group, by the way, is run by Rick Scott, the former head of Columbia/HCA, a for-profit hospital chain. Mr. Scott was forced out of that job amid a fraud investigation; the company eventually pleaded guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans, paying $1.7 billion yes, thats billion in fines. You cant make this stuff up.
But while the organizers are as crass as they come, I havent seen any evidence that the people disrupting those town halls are Florida-style rent-a-mobs. For the most part, the protesters appear to be genuinely angry. The question is, what are they angry about?
There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care. Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.
Now, people who dont know that Medicare is a government program probably arent reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But theyre probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what theyve heard about what hes doing, than to who he is.
That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety thats behind the birther movement, which denies Mr. Obamas citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we dont know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldnt be surprising if its a substantial fraction.
And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.
Does this sound familiar? It should: its a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.
Many people hoped that last years election would mark the end of the angry white voter era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.
But right now Mr. Obamas backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isnt living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.
And if Mr. Obama cant recapture some of the passion of 2008, cant inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 17:46 Post subject:
I would not expect anything different than this from the NYT. Of course if this were Bush and he issue was the war, these people would not be called a "mob". They have a stake in the Obama agenda since they have vehmently pushed it. Still, I want them to keep doing exactly what they are doing.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 18:04 Post subject:
DChapman wrote:
I would not expect anything different than this from the NYT. Of course if this were Bush and he issue was the war, these people would not be called a "mob". They have a stake in the Obama agenda since they have vehmently pushed it. Still, I want them to keep doing exactly what they are doing.
Forget Bush.
I know someone who did Diplomatic Security for 25 years and retired as an Ambassador from the State Department, he knows ex-Secret Service Officers. THey are all concerned right now.
What you say is true, but the problem is a lot of theses "talking heads" are in sighting radicalism to a point that is becoming dangerous. YOu have any clue how many death threats Obama is getting today. It is more than 100X what BUsh getting, that might be an underestimation on my part.
This is what I"m concerned about. God help this country of something happens to Obama, it will be like the 70's riots, every major city in this country will burn.
Some of these folks, the birthers, the more radical demonstrators, they are scary, their are completely irrational and I would say a handful of them are dangerous. It doesn't take many. I do believe fully some of this hysteria is not at all over health care but due to the race of the president. Obama lost white America by a landslide, the amount of vitriol I saw after McCain rallies and I see now, I never remember seeing during Clinton's election or during the Health Care reform...sorry...it was not there. This is a new level. I think we should not dismiss that, especially as black folks, we should know better. This is beyond "political opposition or debate".
This scares me, seriously.
I don't fully support a single payer option (which I know Obama is trying to set up the ground work for, that is what all this is about) however this goes beyond politics, there is something else at work, fueling this. I don't believe in conspiracies, it is more base than that.
Also, I never saw this level of public reaction from leftist during the Bush Administration at townhalls, but for the G-8 summits, that is it (but that occurs no matter who the president is).
"The number of death threats Obama is receiving is 400% higher than the number Bush received. It's also stretching an understaffed Secret Service to its limits trying to keep track of them all."
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 18:19 Post subject:
Dragon Horse wrote:
This is what I"m concerned about. God help this country of something happens to Obama, it will be like the 70's riots, every major city in this country will burn.
Man, I agree with you 100%. I pray nothing happens to him. Any violence by anyone at a town hall meeting should immediately be rectified. I will stand for none of it. Fortunately the people I associate with whom oppose Obama as I do, feel the same way.
I know someone who did Diplomatic Security for 25 years and retired as an Ambassador from the State Department, he knows ex-Secret Service Officers. THey are all concerned right now.
What you say is true, but the problem is a lot of theses "talking heads" are in sighting radicalism to a point that is becoming dangerous. YOu have any clue how many death threats Obama is getting today. It is more than 100X what BUsh getting, that might be an underestimation on my part.
This is what I"m concerned about. God help this country of something happens to Obama, it will be like the 70's riots, every major city in this country will burn.
Some of these folks, the birthers, the more radical demonstrators, they are scary, their are completely irrational and I would say a handful of them are dangerous. It doesn't take many. I do believe fully some of this hysteria is not at all over health care but due to the race of the president. Obama lost white America by a landslide, the amount of vitriol I saw after McCain rallies and I see now, I never remember seeing during Clinton's election or during the Health Care reform...sorry...it was not there. This is a new level. I think we should not dismiss that, especially as black folks, we should know better. This is beyond "political opposition or debate".
This scares me, seriously.
I don't fully support a single payer option (which I know Obama is trying to set up the ground work for, that is what all this is about) however this goes beyond politics, there is something else at work, fueling this. I don't believe in conspiracies, it is more base than that.
Also, I never saw this level of public reaction from leftist during the Bush Administration at townhalls, but for the G-8 summits, that is it (but that occurs no matter who the president is).
I completely agree with this and couldn't have said it better. You can feel it in the air. Something really ugly is going on right now and it cannot be compared to the usual anti-globalization nuts that protest G-8 summits. it's not even just about Obama, though I think a lot of this opposition is masking garden variety racism. Many of these people believe that they are losing "their" country, and I'm sorry to say, this fear is racialized and has Black face on it.
When you can't even state your disagreement with a man without putting him in a witch doctor outfit, there's a serious problem. The opposition to Bush was about his perceived lack of intellect, a personal trait, not his race or even class half the time. People disliked or even hated him, but it was because of his personal ideas or actions (i.e., the National Guard thing). People who thought he was a fascist and the second coming of Hitler were not legitimized by mainstream Democrats. Can you imagine Harry Reid saying "Well I'm not sure if Bush is a fascist." You'll never convince me that half of these Birthers et al. aren't simply masking their racism with what they think are legitimate opposition.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 07 Aug 2009 19:41 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
it's not even just about Obama, though I think a lot of this opposition is masking garden variety racism. Many of these people believe that they are losing "their" country, and I'm sorry to say, this fear is racialized and has Black face on it.
Some cases. This is not the case from what I have observed personally. I will say this: there would not be the feelings out there had he come in and been more like a Clinton instead of going hard left. With Congress being hard left, there are no checks and balances. I think people of all stripes were willing to give him and a chance, but I think the style coming out of the White House has blown it. But that's not to say that increasingly people won't change this into a racial fear as things get tough, I hope not. His past associations with radicals and racists have not helped him with people on the fence either. People today are afraid, unlike 1993, when Clinton first came in.
Many people at these rallies are not right wingers. I know, I have been to one which 4500 people attended. There was rage against Republicans there as well, for many it was a protest against all in the government, no matter who.
sagascend wrote:
You'll never convince me that half of these Birthers et al. aren't simply masking their racism with what they think are legitimate opposition.
This is Obama's creation. All he has to do to shut up the Birthers is to produce the evidence. That's all, seems like it is not a difficult task, but apparently it is. None other than Ann Coulter thinks birthers are loons, imagine that!!!! I personally believe he was born in Hawaii, but I a part of me says I am not sure because he is acting rather suspicious over the whole ordeal. I mean if we knew the very spot for sure and people were continuing to question, then no doubt, it would be race.
Many of these people believe that they are losing "their" country, and I'm sorry to say, this fear is racialized and has Black face on it.
When you can't even state your disagreement with a man without putting him in a witch doctor outfit, there's a serious problem.
I agree. I think that there is a disturbing conflation made by many "white" conservatives between the more liberal policies that they disagree with and their conception of Barack Obama's supposed "blackness." If there is anything "too far to the left" about Barack Obama's policies, then it should have nothing to do with his supposed race.
Surely "black" conservatives ought particularly resent this, as their views are being ignored by other conservative "whites" as legitimate "black" views.
sagascend wrote:
You'll never convince me that half of these Birthers et al. aren't simply masking their racism with what they think are legitimate opposition.
DChapman wrote:
This is Obama's creation. All he has to do to shut up the Birthers is to produce the evidence. That's all, seems like it is not a difficult task, but apparently it is. None other than Ann Coulter thinks birthers are loons, imagine that!!!! I personally believe he was born in Hawaii, but I a part of me says I am not sure because he is acting rather suspicious over the whole ordeal.
Snopes.com debunks this silliness HERE. This is Barack Obama's birth certificate-
DChapman wrote:
I mean if we knew the very spot for sure and people were continuing to question, then no doubt, it would be race.
It is also possible that these people are going after Barack Obama entirely because they disagree with his political views and not at all in relation to race. Although my instinct leads me to hypothesize that race and the left/right political polarity are intertwined here, for reasons related to what I said at the beginning of this post (witch doctor outfits, etc.).
If there is anything "too far to the left" about Barack Obama's policies, then it should have nothing to do with his supposed race.
Surely "black" conservatives ought particularly resent this, as their views are being ignored by other conservative "whites" as legitimate "black" views.
This is a great point and something I hadn't really thought about. One can take the most optimistic view possible but there is such sinister, violent and blatantly racist rhetoric around Obama that I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt here.
I wonder whether Michael Steele is making like an abused spouse and covering up his bruises with that wide smile and a little pancake make-up. I'd bet that he is getting his you-know-what handed to him by the same people behind closed doors.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sat 08 Aug 2009 03:15 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
sagascend wrote:
Many of these people believe that they are losing "their" country, and I'm sorry to say, this fear is racialized and has Black face on it.
When you can't even state your disagreement with a man without putting him in a witch doctor outfit, there's a serious problem.
I agree. I think that there is a disturbing conflation made by many "white" conservatives between the more liberal policies that they disagree with and their conception of Barack Obama's supposed "blackness." If there is anything "too far to the left" about Barack Obama's policies, then it should have nothing to do with his supposed race.
Surely "black" conservatives ought particularly resent this, as their views are being ignored by other conservative "whites" as legitimate "black" views.
sagascend wrote:
You'll never convince me that half of these Birthers et al. aren't simply masking their racism with what they think are legitimate opposition.
DChapman wrote:
This is Obama's creation. All he has to do to shut up the Birthers is to produce the evidence. That's all, seems like it is not a difficult task, but apparently it is. None other than Ann Coulter thinks birthers are loons, imagine that!!!! I personally believe he was born in Hawaii, but I a part of me says I am not sure because he is acting rather suspicious over the whole ordeal.
Snopes.com debunks this silliness HERE. This is Barack Obama's birth certificate-
DChapman wrote:
I mean if we knew the very spot for sure and people were continuing to question, then no doubt, it would be race.
It is also possible that these people are going after Barack Obama entirely because they disagree with his political views and not at all in relation to race. Although my instinct leads me to hypothesize that race and the left/right political polarity are intertwined here, for reasons related to what I said at the beginning of this post (witch doctor outfits, etc.).
Sorry, but that ain't the BC people are looking for. They are looking for the LONG FORM, the one which states the hospital and has a signature of a doctor. Look at the lower left corner: Rev 11/01, come on. Plus in 1961, the fathers race would more than likely have been Negro, not African. There was one displayed on WND by a woman who gave birth to twins the day after Obama was born, so we know it existed, that is the long form. The BC here was given to people who had given birth in other places including out of the country in the early 1960s.
Sorry, but that ain't the BC people are looking for. They are looking for the LONG FORM, the one which states the hospital and has a signature of a doctor. Look at the lower left corner: Rev 11/01, come on.
I have ordered copies of birth certificates, several times, for genealogical purposes. You don't generally get an actual copy of the original. What you usually get is a print out like this one. It is official and comes directly from the existing government records. It is proof in any legal context. Try it. Order your own birth certificate HERE and see what you get.
Sorry, but that ain't the BC people are looking for. They are looking for the LONG FORM, the one which states the hospital and has a signature of a doctor. Look at the lower left corner: Rev 11/01, come on.
I have ordered copies of birth certificates, several times, for genealogical purposes. You don't generally get an actual copy of the original. What you usually get is a print out like this one. It is official and comes directly from the existing government records. It is proof in any legal context. Try it. Order your own birth certificate HERE and see what you get.
Maybe emphasizing point you're making repeatedly will help.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I have requested my own birth certificate from the State Department and my daughter's from the state of Delaware. I saw a copy of my birth certificate from 1976 a long time ago. It looks NOTHING like the birth certificate I requested and received in 1998. My daughter's birth certificate that I ordered in 2009 looks EXACTLY like the one I ordered in 2004 in the year she was born. The simple explanation is that the State Department has changed the format of certificates it issues in the past 33 years, and the state of Delaware has not changed its format in the last 5 years. I can guarantee that won't be the case in 10, 20 or 30 years, let alone 48.
There is no nefarious reason for the discrepancy in the format of my current certificate. It's been 33 years since my original certificate was issued, and agencies simply update the format they use to issue new copies. I also do not have an "original" birth certificate to provide to people who might doubt my location of birth. If I ever ran for president, someone might insist that I'm not a citizen either. But they'd be mistaken.
People have got to stop saying these things and making mountains out of molehills.
Joined: 03 Jan 2006 {Posts: 9 } Location: West Coast
Posted: Sat 08 Aug 2009 21:07 Post subject:
DChapman wrote:
Sorry, but that ain't the BC people are looking for. They are looking for the LONG FORM, the one which states the hospital and has a signature of a doctor. Look at the lower left corner: Rev 11/01, come on. Plus in 1961, the fathers race would more than likely have been Negro, not African. There was one displayed on WND by a woman who gave birth to twins the day after Obama was born, so we know it existed, that is the long form. The BC here was given to people who had given birth in other places including out of the country in the early 1960s.
This looks just about like what the state of NH gave me for my son. The "Original" that I was given was a certified CARBON COPY with all the dr stuff on it, and it wore out.
This is what civilized states give out; I think the ones in California may be pink!
On the other hand, what the cheapos in KY send is a photostatic copy, which is on something like old style fax paper from before PPF, and lasts about a year at which point it starts disintegrating, a real cash cow, that!
I don't know what The President weighed at birth, but back in the day women in the advanced stages of pregnancy weren't allowed on long overseas flights, or anything that took longer than about an hour. His mother would have been unable to travel; they kept us in the hospital for a week, nearly, and so on. The sort of conspiracy you are promoting just was not so, it did not happen.
As for the African v. Negro choice of wording, the people who fill out the papers ask questions. I am sure that that was the elder Obama's choice, because very many Africans did not want to be taken for American Negroes. That was 1961.
The Black MAN is The President, people need to get over it and move on!
As for the racists, until he got in there, every white male American could comfort himself with the fantasy of being the leader, and falling short, always knew that even if he didn't make it to the top job, at least he had had a shot which made him "better" than one of the "others." That has been taken away. Now, any smart, bright, educated fella can come along and beat him out of his "birthright." Soon, a woman will also do that. If you think a certain type is pissed of now, just you wait.
It will be worse, times a thousand, than whomever that OWG in the Senate asking Associate Justice Sotomayor whatever (to paraphrase) made her thing she could possible know as much or more than an OWG. Just wait, just you wait, LOL.
Me, I am just laughing still, at the Senator, because he could not even conceive of anyone being smarter than an OWG.
Regarding the President, I voted for him because he was smarter, brighter, more coherent, and so on, plus young enough to handle the job. There was also that I believe the man showed supreme good sense in his choice of a wife, something I cannot say about the other candidate. Then there was the Palin, when there really were some supremely qualified Republican women, but I guess they just didn't appeal to the RWW contingent.
Posted: Sun 09 Aug 2009 00:17 Post subject: birt certificate
DChapman wrote:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
sagascend wrote:
Many of these people believe that they are losing "their" country, and I'm sorry to say, this fear is racialized and has Black face on it.
When you can't even state your disagreement with a man without putting him in a witch doctor outfit, there's a serious problem.
I agree. I think that there is a disturbing conflation made by many "white" conservatives between the more liberal policies that they disagree with and their conception of Barack Obama's supposed "blackness." If there is anything "too far to the left" about Barack Obama's policies, then it should have nothing to do with his supposed race.
Surely "black" conservatives ought particularly resent this, as their views are being ignored by other conservative "whites" as legitimate "black" views.
sagascend wrote:
You'll never convince me that half of these Birthers et al. aren't simply masking their racism with what they think are legitimate opposition.
DChapman wrote:
This is Obama's creation. All he has to do to shut up the Birthers is to produce the evidence. That's all, seems like it is not a difficult task, but apparently it is. None other than Ann Coulter thinks birthers are loons, imagine that!!!! :lol: I personally believe he was born in Hawaii, but I a part of me says I am not sure because he is acting rather suspicious over the whole ordeal.
Snopes.com debunks this silliness HERE. This is Barack Obama's birth certificate-
DChapman wrote:
I mean if we knew the very spot for sure and people were continuing to question, then no doubt, it would be race.
It is also possible that these people are going after Barack Obama entirely because they disagree with his political views and not at all in relation to race. Although my instinct leads me to hypothesize that race and the left/right political polarity are intertwined here, for reasons related to what I said at the beginning of this post (witch doctor outfits, etc.).
Sorry, but that ain't the BC people are looking for. They are looking for the LONG FORM, the one which states the hospital and has a signature of a doctor. Look at the lower left corner: Rev 11/01, come on. Plus in 1961, the fathers race would more than likely have been Negro, not African. There was one displayed on WND by a woman who gave birth to twins the day after Obama was born, so we know it existed, that is the long form. The BC here was given to people who had given birth in other places including out of the country in the early 1960s.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Sun 09 Aug 2009 17:03 Post subject:
DChapman:
That copy of the birth certificate that you displayed is very similar to the one I got from the state of Ohio to get my marriage license and also my passport. If it is good enough for the the U.S. State Department to issue passports are you saying.
Like most states, Hawaii does not give a "long form", it might even be posible that one does not exist...but it does. You can see pictures of it on the net, because the State of Hawaii has issued them. They also have made it clear they do not give out originals.
So are you suggesting that Obama violate "state's rights" and send the FBI to Hawaii to break into the State Government office of Vital Statistics to steal the document causing a constitutional crisis to held feed the conspiracy theories of some wackjobs, because you know they will not believe whatever it is that Obama produces anyway.
There are still people who think Obama is an Arab. LOL
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sun 09 Aug 2009 20:39 Post subject:
Dragon Horse wrote:
DChapman:
That copy of the birth certificate that you displayed is very similar to the one I got from the state of Ohio to get my marriage license and also my passport. If it is good enough for the the U.S. State Department to issue passports are you saying.
Like most states, Hawaii does not give a "long form", it might even be posible that one does not exist...but it does. You can see pictures of it on the net, because the State of Hawaii has issued them. They also have made it clear they do not give out originals.
So are you suggesting that Obama violate "state's rights" and send the FBI to Hawaii to break into the State Government office of Vital Statistics to steal the document causing a constitutional crisis to held feed the conspiracy theories of some wackjobs, because you know they will not believe whatever it is that Obama produces anyway.
There are still people who think Obama is an Arab. LOL
No, I am suggesting that Obama authorize the state government on his own accord. He will not do this. He could be doing this on purpose because lke Bill Clinton, he can. This is not the transparency that was promised by him. Like I keep stating, Obama has the power to put an end to all this. I just wish he would.
Back to death threats...
In NH, a man was caught outside with a gun strapped to himself.
www.HuffingtonPost.com
In NH, there is no licensing requirement to own or carry firearms. The tradition of doing so is strong, and one can often see men and women carrying weapons in NH in supermarkets or malls as they do their shopping, even while pushing baby strollers. At a recent outdoor state event attended by the governor, more than half of the adults were carrying weapons. The inhabitants of other states may find the NH custom bizarre and frightening, but it is their custom and they seem happy with it.
No, I am suggesting that Obama authorize the state government on his own accord. He will not do this. He could be doing this on purpose because lke Bill Clinton, he can. This is not the transparency that was promised by him. Like I keep stating, Obama has the power to put an end to all this. I just wish he would.
Why should he? He's released valid documentation. The government accepts that he's legally the president. The vast majority of Americans seemingly accept that he's legally the president. IMO, the "birthers" are only doing harm to the Republican party. There seems to be a growing view that the right wing has become unhinged since the election of Obama and the birther movement just reinforces that.
Besides, if conspiracy theorists already believe one birth certificate is a forgery, why would they suddenly believe a different version is legit?
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2009 17:37 Post subject:
balthan wrote:
DChapman wrote:
No, I am suggesting that Obama authorize the state government on his own accord. He will not do this. He could be doing this on purpose because lke Bill Clinton, he can. This is not the transparency that was promised by him. Like I keep stating, Obama has the power to put an end to all this. I just wish he would.
Why should he?
Why should he not?? McCain had to do it. The Senate held hearings on whether McCain was eligible or not.
balthan wrote:
He's released valid documentation.
His documentation is questionable. If he wanted to shut the "idiots" up, he should just produce all documentation which would prove his point. He refuses to do this.
balthan wrote:
The government accepts that he's legally the president.
I do not trust this government, that's the problem. Many, many others do not as well. His party and cronies are in control of this government, so do not expect much scrutiny there.
balthan wrote:
The vast majority of Americans seemingly accept that he's legally the president.
That's because a lot of them get their sources of information from media operatives whom are Obama worshippers who are not objective sources of information.
balthan wrote:
IMO, the "birthers" are only doing harm to the Republican party. There seems to be a growing view that the right wing has become unhinged since the election of Obama and the birther movement just reinforces that.
The venue that will be harmed is the Obama media who refuse to even fully investigate the issue. Instead they denegrade and call names. They should not be doing this....but they cannot help it. Some conservatives think that the issue should be shelved. I happen to think he was born in Hawaii, but want to know why he is acting suspciously over this.
balthan wrote:
Besides, if conspiracy theorists already believe one birth certificate is a forgery, why would they suddenly believe a different version is legit?
Wow, I agree with you 100%!!!!!! This is the reason why many "conservatives think the issue should be shelved.
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I personally believe he was born in Hawaii, but I a part of me says I am not sure because he is acting rather suspicious over the whole ordeal. I mean if we knew the very spot for sure and people were continuing to question, then no doubt, it would be race.