Part of our repair in the reparations movement is to correct blatant white supremacy distortions of history, Case in point: Egypt belongs to Africa!
Up until recent years, there had been a scholarly debate among European intellectuals, joined by some Blacks, on what they referred to as the peopling of ancient Egypt. What this question really posed was, “Who were the ancient Egyptians?” Were they Black, white or mulatto, etc?
This issue has been at the core of European history or better yet European historiography (the science of how history is written) for more than two hundred years. This framework of European hegemony over the history of the world has had a devastating impact on African people and on the African mind.
It is in this context that we understand the intellectual devastation of the European conceptualization of the world order. We should understand this in relation to our movement for an African Centered Education and our Reparations Movement that are aimed at helping our people come out from beneath this European intellectual assault and educate and repair ourselves.
Let me use renowned African deep thinker and scholar, Jacob H. Carruthers, to help clarify this subject by revisiting a paper he wrote entitled, “Race of Ancient Egyptians.” This paper gives us the insights we need to understand this dilemma.
Carruthers observed that, “The doctrine of white supremacy was launched by philosophers like David Hume who asserted in 1749, ‘I am apt to suspect the Negroes to be naturally inferior to the whites.’ This position was expressed in a different context by Montesquieu about the same time.”
We are guided by Carruthers when he says, “In the Spirit of the Laws, Montesquieu asserted, ‘it is impossible for us to suppose these creatures to be men, because allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians.’ Montesquieu was justifying the enslavement of Africans which was one of the major reasons for inventing the doctrine of white supremacy.”
Upon further examination, Carruthers says, “Obviously the emerging doctrine could not gain credibility among those who were familiar with the traditional wisdom among Europeans that the ancient Africans of Egypt had achieved a very high level of civilization and had transmitted to the ancient Greeks many of the major ideas considered a part of Greek civilization.”
Carruthers says, “Several decades after the founding of the concept of white supremacy George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel supplied the solution of this latter difficulty when at the beginning of the 19th century, he asserted that Africa was ‘not a historical part of the world.’”
Finally, Carruthers quotes Hegel to demonstrate the ultimate in European intellectual arrogance, Hegel stated, “Historical movement in it, that is in its northern part, belongs to the Asiatic or European world… Egypt will be considered in reference to its western phase, but it does not belong to the African spirit.” Through this conceptualization Carruthers reveals, “Thus, Hegel took Egypt out of African and Africans out of Egypt. He also removed Africans from history.”
As an outgrowth of this kind of thinking by European scholars, the field of Egyptology began to emerge. Egyptology as a field of study is the creation of the European mentality, which seeks to gather evidence (artifacts and antiquities) that supports the idea of the European origin of civilization. Egyptologist have literally attempted to remove Egypt from the geographical confines of Africa and re-deposited it within the geographical domain of Asia, in an area that is even now referred to as the “ Middle East.”
The removal of Egypt from Africa serves a twofold purpose. First, it leads to the obvious idea that Egypt is not a part of Africa therefore its population could not have been Black. Secondly, it serves the purpose of implying that civilization did not begin with the Black race.
Fortunately, we have always had Black scholars among us who did not get trapped in the European conception of the world. It started with men like Hosea Easton, Henry Highland Garnett, and Martin R. Delany who “took the biblical myth of Ham and used it to establish Blacks as the authors of the great Nile Valley civilizations.”
Also, “They… used ancient European works such as Herodotus, Diodorus, and whatever modern works they could find. This tradition has been an honorable endeavor and has taught us much.” The old scrappers, according to Carruthers, “are still among us slugging it our as per our beloved Professor John G. Jackson.” Through the works of Senegalese scholar, Cheikh Anta Diop, Theophile Obenga, Yosef ben Jochannan, Chancellor Williams and others, the origin of the ancient Egyptians should never, ever be a question for African people. This question has been resolved. We should be clear that ancient Egypt or Kemet (as the people who lived in this area called it. Kemet means the city or community of the Blacks) and the ancient Egyptians, or more properly, the Kemetic people were Black.
Diop points out that Herodotus “after relating his eyewitness account informing us that the Egyptians were Blacks, then demonstrated, with rare honesty (for a Greek), that Greece borrowed from Egypt all elements of her civilization even the cult of gods, and that Egypt was the cradle of civilization.”
Our scholars, deep thinkers, and researchers should never again raise the question of who were the ancient Egyptians. This question has been resolved. Clearly the people of ancient Egypt/Kemet, were Black people!
Dr. Conrad W. Worrill is the National Chairman of the National Black United Front (NBUF) E-mail: nbufchic@allways.net
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Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 05 Nov 2006 03:46 Post subject: Egyptians Blacks?
Why is so important for certain Blacks that Ancient Egyptians were Black?
Isn't there any other civilization in Africa but Egypt?
After all, Egypt has more in common with the Levante and Mesopotamia rather than with Subsaharan Africa.
After all, most Black Americans descent of people living in Subsaharan West Africa and not Egypt. Besides, there is lot of evidence that Classical Egypt has quite a few people that "look".... how to say it.... caucasian.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 18:47 Post subject: Re: Egyptians Blacks?
oevega wrote:
Why is so important for certain Blacks that Ancient Egyptians were Black?
Isn't there any other civilization in Africa but Egypt?
After all, Egypt has more in common with the Levante and Mesopotamia rather than with Subsaharan Africa.
After all, most Black Americans descent of people living in Subsaharan West Africa and not Egypt. Besides, there is lot of evidence that Classical Egypt has quite a few people that "look".... how to say it.... caucasian.
Omar
It's because they have an inferiority complex. West Africans whom reside in th US are baffled at the Black Amercan trying to make the cultural/ancestorial connection to Egypt. They say, "We don't claim them, so how can they (Black Americans), and most of their (Black Americans) descendants are West African!" I've heard it said exactly like that.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 19:33 Post subject: Re: Egyptians Blacks?
DChapman wrote:
...
It's because they have an inferiority complex. West Africans whom reside in th US are baffled at the Black Amercan trying to make the cultural/ancestorial connection to Egypt. They say, "We don't claim them, so how can they (Black Americans), and most of their (Black Americans) descendants are West African!" I've heard it said exactly like that.
That's tragic, isn't it? That attitude, or inferiority complex, is present in other ethnic groups as well. Mestizos, for example, usually claim European and forget theirs Indigenous part, which is a shame. Now, I guess West Africans immigrants living in the U.S. must feel quite bad with the lack of interest of Black Americans of the U.S. in theirs homelands.
On the other hand, Cubans or Brazilians (of any color or race), know the roots of the African part of theirs folklore and traditions comes from West Africa, and mostly from Nigeria.
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 19:41 Post subject: Re: Egyptians Blacks?
DChapman wrote:
oevega wrote:
Why is so important for certain Blacks that Ancient Egyptians were Black?
Isn't there any other civilization in Africa but Egypt?
After all, Egypt has more in common with the Levante and Mesopotamia rather than with Subsaharan Africa.
After all, most Black Americans descent of people living in Subsaharan West Africa and not Egypt. Besides, there is lot of evidence that Classical Egypt has quite a few people that "look".... how to say it.... caucasian.
Omar
It's because they have an inferiority complex. West Africans whom reside in th US are baffled at the Black Amercan trying to make the cultural/ancestorial connection to Egypt. They say, "We don't claim them, so how can they (Black Americans), and most of their (Black Americans) descendants are West African!" I've heard it said exactly like that.
I agree. Even if they were Black (to American rules, yes many of the AE were Black), but they haven't been so for many centuries under Arab expansionism. To me they are Arabs.
Some Black Americans can find much more to be proud of in West Africa anyway. They just want to claim this culture because 'Whitey' claims it as special and unique to Roman civilization/basis of West IMO, Whites shouldn't really claim it either. The Egyptians are their own people, with imputs from whites, Balcks, Arabs, etc. I consider them to be mixed race and Arab (culturally).
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 19:55 Post subject:
I agree Melani and Omar.
The problem is that people like Conrad Worrill are applying a standard unique to the United States to a part of the world that does not use tht standard. That standard is of course, The One Drop Rule. They are appyling it to a time in history that did not have the racial perceptions that we have today. This is why their points are moot IMO. It doesn't matter if the Egyptians were Black, White, Arab, mixed, whatever. The fact is they did not see themselves the way we see them today. Most importantly they are long gone. Worrill and his ilk should look toward the present and future instead of the past
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 20:07 Post subject: Re: Egyptians Blacks?
oevega wrote:
Why is so important for certain Blacks that Ancient Egyptians were Black?
Isn't there any other civilization in Africa but Egypt?
After all, Egypt has more in common with the Levante and Mesopotamia rather than with Subsaharan Africa.
After all, most Black Americans descent of people living in Subsaharan West Africa and not Egypt. Besides, there is lot of evidence that Classical Egypt has quite a few people that "look".... how to say it.... caucasian.
Omar
The Egyptians are the superstar non-Western culture that received credit in world history for their contributions (but only recently have classical scholars began to give them their "props" in shaping Greco-Roman philosophical thought). Even the ancient Chinese advances were not so universally accepted and celebrated. There's unabashed admiration for Egyptian culture, and their secrets have not been fully brought to light. Before any Afrocentrist dreamed of claiming Egyptians were Black, Europeans exaggerated the cultural ties of the Alexandrians to native Egyptian culture, and portrayed Greek and Roman advances as somehow materializing out of thin air rather than having been adopted from older cultures like the Egyptians. Similar strategies have been used to discredit the contributions of non-European people to the success and prosperity of the U.S., so it seems to me that some Blacks project the same scenario onto the Egyptians after seeing some evidence that they didn't really look like Elizabeth Taylor (although maybe Cleopatra did).
Afrocentrists are operating in the mode of Eurocentrists who "whitewashed" non-Western cultures. So it should be no surprise that some Blacks do they same. I've even seen multiracialists getting in on the fun and claiming that ancient Egyptians were mulattos/biracial/fill-in-the blank. Really, modern people need to stop racializing people who did not think in racial terms. It's silly.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 20:22 Post subject:
Quote:
Really, modern people need to stop racializing people who did not think in racial terms. It's silly.
I agree 100%!!! That's my point as well!!! When people do this, it gives them a sense of a false history. They will think that people like the Egyptians walked aound thinking that they were "Black" (US definition) in the 20th/21st Century perspective, that their identity was somewhat hijacked by Europeans. In a sense it has been though. I think all sides have to stop the nonsense!!!
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 06 Nov 2006 21:10 Post subject: Re: Egyptians Blacks?
Melani23 wrote:
...They just want to claim this culture because 'Whitey' claims it as special and unique to Roman civilization/basis of West
That's curious as well. Everyone want to be descendent of Romans. But the fact is, quite a few Europeans are really descendents of the Ancient Latins. Moreover, even in Roman times, the authentic "Romans" where a minority in their own country.
Yes, there is a cultural heritage shared by the Western countries, but not even today's Italians can be completely sure theirs ancestors are Latins. Moreover, most westerners were tribal barbarians up to recent times. But you go to Russia and they believe they are the "Third Rome". In Britain they believe the British Empire is the "reencarnation of the Roman Empire", and you go to Romania, and they call that way because of Rome. Even Spaniards dream of Hispania, the Roman province.
It is just crazy the way history has been manipulated. And Eurocentrism is the root of many of those other ethnocentric movements, without doubt.
Really, modern people need to stop racializing people who did not think in racial terms. It's silly.
I agree 100%!!! That's my point as well!!! When people do this, it gives them a sense of a false history. They will think that people like the Egyptians walked aound thinking that they were "Black" (US definition) in the 20th/21st Century perspective, that their identity was somewhat hijacked by Europeans. In a sense it has been though. I think all sides have to stop the nonsense!!!
But just as many people think that the Egyptians and everyone in Europe thought of themselves as white.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Wed 08 Nov 2006 12:33 Post subject:
Generally speaking, white Americans and Europeans want to whitewash the ancient Egyptians, and black Americans want to blackwash them. There are exceptions in both groups of course.
It's very rare, IME, to see the ancient Egyptians portrayed as the mixed, phenotypically varied population that they in fact were.
If a studio made a film about Menjuhotpe II and his reunification of ancient Egypt - white Americans and Europeans would object that a "black" man was portrayed as the ruler of Egypt. Black Americans on the other hand, want to see Cleopatra IV, a woman of mostly or entirely ancient Greek ancestry, portrayed by a black actress.
Both points of view are irrational, but then again, part of being human is holding on to beliefs that are demonstrably false.
It's very rare, IME, to see the ancient Egyptians portrayed as the mixed, phenotypically varied population that they in fact were.
In the past, perhaps, but in recent times, many documentaries, movies, etc. portray Egyptians as either "Middle Eastern-looking" or in a range of phenotypes. "Alexander", "Rome", "The Scorpion King" , "The Mummy", and Disney's "Prince of Egypt" are just a few of the movies or televison programs today that depict ancient Egyptians as mixed or varied in complexion. The days when ancient Egyptians were made to look like people from Great Britain or Poland are pretty much over.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Wed 08 Nov 2006 14:04 Post subject:
odocoileus wrote:
Generally speaking, white Americans and Europeans want to whitewash the ancient Egyptians, and black Americans want to blackwash them. There are exceptions in both groups of course.
It's very rare, IME, to see the ancient Egyptians portrayed as the mixed, phenotypically varied population that they in fact were.
If a studio made a film about Menjuhotpe II and his reunification of ancient Egypt - white Americans and Europeans would object that a "black" man was portrayed as the ruler of Egypt. Black Americans on the other hand, want to see Cleopatra IV, a woman of mostly or entirely ancient Greek ancestry, portrayed by a black actress.
Both points of view are irrational, but then again, part of being human is holding on to beliefs that are demonstrably false.
Well, I hate to see Romans represented by British actors and American Indians represented by Italians.
Generally speaking, white Americans and Europeans want to whitewash the ancient Egyptians, and black Americans want to blackwash them. There are exceptions in both groups of course.
It's very rare, IME, to see the ancient Egyptians portrayed as the mixed, phenotypically varied population that they in fact were.
If a studio made a film about Menjuhotpe II and his reunification of ancient Egypt - white Americans and Europeans would object that a "black" man was portrayed as the ruler of Egypt. Black Americans on the other hand, want to see Cleopatra IV, a woman of mostly or entirely ancient Greek ancestry, portrayed by a black actress.
Both points of view are irrational, but then again, part of being human is holding on to beliefs that are demonstrably false.
Well, I hate to see Romans represented by British actors and American Indians represented by Italians.
Well, I hate to see Romans represented by British actors and American Indians represented by Italians.
cjohns482482 wrote:
Me too.
I wouldn't have any problem with a British actor playing a Roman or an Italian playing an American Indian if I could have at least seen one dark skinned elf in The Lord of The Rings.
To be fair, it would be pretty difficult to cast an ancient Egyptian in a film role, as there aren't any alive today.
Here are a couple of interesting images that illustrate ancient Egyptian perceptions of ethnicity (Source).
From From the tomb of Seti I - Four peoples of the world: Syrian, Nubian, Libyan, and Egyptian
Faience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu - Foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian, Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite
The short answer is yes. According the US color line which does not allow for mixture, yes. Just like Obama and Tiger Woods are considered black. Is this significant? No. Is it totally irrelevant? No.
Since we are discussing applying a contemporary concept to ancient people this post is to be considered OPINION. Why because using science you cannot tell the whole story of ancient Egypt you can only pick and choose. That is where agendas, bad science and flat out lies come in.
EARLY DAYS
At some point in time people noticed how fertile the Nile valley was. They settled there and ate what food was there. At some point in time they planted food on purpose. They noticed the valley flooded periodically and at some time equated it to astronomical events. They also partitioned that land after the flood which gave rise to geometry. In time a civilization developed along with other sciences.
PHENOTYPE
This is where eyeballing comes in. In my opinion looking at the artwork most egyptions were light brown like the Khoisan. Artwork also depicts brown and dark brown people who were also in the area at the time. A few dynastic rulers were brown and dark brown. I am not sure as to the ages of these artifacts but looking at the wigs found in tombs they are of the kinky hair variety mostly. Most have braids. Descriptions by Greeks describe Egyptians as dark. There are other skin tones and phenotypes found in artwork.
VACUUM
While I contend that Egypt was founded by peoples living in Africa it does not exist in a vacuum. Look at where Egypt is located. Right on the path in or out of Africa. How can anyone expect that other people did not come into Egypt. There was no border patrol barring immigration. How after thousands of years is it conceivable that the population not be mixed? Given the fact there is NO evidence of a color line in Egypt. It defies all common sense that the Egyptians were of one anything. Any time a civilization rises people flock to it. Egypt was the place to be for centuries. At the end of Egypt's days there were plenty of Greeks Romans and everybody else there in all kinds of positions. People came to the Egypt to learn because a lot of scientific knowledge had been accumulated there.
GENETICS
No evidence here so don't look for it. I have read a few WEB pages that claim the results of DNA tests on mummies is inconclusive as it pertains to race. It seems they were using this to refute Afrocentric claims. I would argue that the test were inconclusive because they contained the DNA of people that had A) a lot of admixture or B) or were ancient like the Khoisan. Enough about this.
AFRICAN AMERICAN CLAIMS
Early scholars in my opinion were combating the claims that the egyptians were white or that the egyptians were empirical in their knowledge and not scientific. Racist white scholars had white washed history. I personally saw a History Channel Show a few years ago that claimed that the Greeks wanted to know how things worked and use that knowledge for other things, while the Egyptians stumbled upon knowledge and only used it to build pyramids and count grain. Some AA scholars combated bad science with bad science. Simply mimicking the tactics use by white scholars. Why because they are human like anybody else and they believed in the narrowly defined categories of race because this was all they knew. No matter the motivation bad science is bad science. What we can conclude from all of the books, videos and claims is that using modern concepts to describe ancient people simply does not work and leads to disastrous results.
The rest of this post is off topic.
One thing that I believe has been missed pertains to this inferiority complex thing. Of course AAs have this since they are told directly and indirectly that they are inferior. If it rains on you you are going to get wet. The extent of this varies by individual. However some of you do not understand is that when AAs say that someone is black they are not referring 100% to phenotype all the time. They can be referring to culture. When people look at an AA person that is assimilated they say he is not black. Are they referring to his looks. No. Sometimes when blackness is pointed out it refers to the recognition of black culture. Black culture is mostly unrecognized and undefined. Prime example fried chicken. Yes I am serious. AAs have a tradition of frying foods that comes from SSA (mostly fish). Why is it a joke that AAs like fried chicken? Would you laugh at an Italian eating pizza or a Mexican eating an enchilada? Some AA foods have roots in SSA what is the big deal? Why can a lot of AAs dance? Same reason that Shaolin monks can do Kung Fu. They are trained through cultural tradition. We in America have been taught that AAs are inferior and anything they do that is different is looked down on. However America takes from the culture what likes like music. AAs are associated with crime and poverty. True a higher percentage of AAs are in poverty and the VIOLENT crime rates are higher. Does that mean the AA you see is going to rob you? No. All AAs are not the same. Just like all whites are not the same but whites have designations like white trash, rednecks, middle class etc. AAs have no distinguishing groups they are all lumped together. We do call each other ghetto or bourgi though. Point is others need to learn to read people for who they are. Where I live there are white neighborhoods where I would not get out of the car. I am tire of being followed around a store no matter how I am dressed or having my ticket scrutinized because they can't believe I am in business class.
This board has helped me immensely in understanding the world and my context within it. Let's help each other to become smarter people. Some of the bickering on here while entertaining is kind of childish.
The short answer is yes. According the US color line which does not allow for mixture, yes. Just like Obama and Tiger Woods are considered black. Is this significant? No. Is it totally irrelevant? No.
I could just as easily state that according to the Latin American way of looking at race or the way contemporary Egyptians looks at race Cleopatra was not black. In many parts of the world, neither Obama nor Woods would be considered black.
U.S. conceptions and definitions of blackness aren't universal. Therefore it's more accurate to say that according to many people in the U.S. she would be black.
According the US color line which does not allow for mixture, yes. Just like Obama and Tiger Woods are considered black.
This is not accurate. Obama considers himself Black but Tiger Woods does not. The use of passive voice above suggests that Holdtight is merely expressing his own personal opinion as to who is Black and who is not. But this is far from a rule of U.S. society.
First, since about 1986, U.S. courts have consistently held that Blackness is measured by community acceptance, not by ancestry. Second, we know from autosomal markers that tens of millions of White Americans are actually mixed. Third, as Gordon points out, since colonial times, Latin Americans, who are generally known to be of mixed Euro-Afro ancestry have been seen as either a third "race" (or as White per their own preference, unless they are of overwhelmingly Afro phenotype). Finally, many members of this site (including me) have significant Afro ancestry (13 percent in my case) and yet we have never considered ourselves nor been considered by anyone in authority to be be Black.
It is true that Americans dichotomize "race." It is also true that, legally speaking in the U.S. you must be either Black or White but not in-between. But it is false to say that any Afro ancestry makes you Black in the U.S. Such a notion is neither the law of the land today, nor has it ever been applied to Hispanics.
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IMO, Whites shouldn't really claim it either. The Egyptians are their own people, with imputs from whites, Balcks, Arabs, etc. I consider them to be mixed race and Arab (culturally).
