The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' Cleopatra was part-African, documentary claims          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> International Stories Author Message Spiral Experienced User Joined: 03 Jan 2008 {Posts: 125 } Location: TnT Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 04:10    Post subject: Cleopatra was part-African, documentary claims I saw the Documentary on Discovery, it was really interesting, if you guys get a chance, take a look at it Quote: Cleopatra may have been part-African and not Greek Caucasian, according to a British TV documentary to be shown this month. It has long been thought that the former Queen of Egypt's roots were in Greece, but the discovery of what experts believe are her sister's remains has revealed that the siblings had a part-African heritage. The BBC documentary Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer to be shown on March 23 shows the analysis of human remains in a tomb in Ephesus, Turkey. Using facial reconstruction and forensic techniques with anthropological and architectural analysis of the tomb, the experts are convinced that the skeleton is the remains of Cleopatra's sister, Princess Arsinoe, who was murdered on Cleopatra's orders. Archaeologist Dr Hilke Thuer from the Austrian Academy of Science, who led the team, said: "The results of the forensic examination and the fact that the facial reconstruction shows that Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/16/2516981.htm?section=entertainment http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/16/cleopatra-african.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/also_in_the_news/7945333.stm Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5377 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 04:33    Post subject: Quick trivia question. What is the largest city in Africa? Back to top Spiral Experienced User Joined: 03 Jan 2008 {Posts: 125 } Location: TnT Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 04:44    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: Quick trivia question. What is the largest city in Africa? Cairo i believe Back to top Spiral Experienced User Joined: 03 Jan 2008 {Posts: 125 } Location: TnT Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 14:12    Post subject: If you guys have time maybe you can check out some of the things that are being written on Blogs all over the net concerning this, it appears to have caused quite an uproar http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2009/03/the-skeleton-of.html http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/03/15/cleopatra-arsinoe-and-the-implications/ Back to top erasmusinfinity Moderator Joined: 07 Dec 2008 {Posts: 408 } Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 14:45    Post subject: Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5377 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 14:50    Post subject: By Cleopatra's time, I believe that Rome had conquered "omnia Gallia" and about half of Britannia as well. Back to top Spiral Experienced User Joined: 03 Jan 2008 {Posts: 125 } Location: TnT Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 14:55    Post subject: Image made of Cleopatra's sister http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7958819.stm Back to top erasmusinfinity Moderator Joined: 07 Dec 2008 {Posts: 408 } Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 14:57    Post subject: Quote: Cleopatra may have been part-African and not Greek Caucasian If, by Caucasian, we mean the modern day sense of "white" in America, then Cleopatra was most definitely not that. If, by part-African, we mean the modern day sense of "black" in America, then Cleopatra was not that either. Cleopatra's ancestral lines would have most certainly come from one or more of the lineages present in the region in which she lived, and most likely involved a great deal of mixture with regards to the perceived ethnicities of the time and those eras prior. Ancient Egyptians bred with people's from all of the lands surrounding Egypt. Ancient Greeks bred with the Egyptians, other north Africans, and people from the middle and further east. Romans bred with the Greeks, and and across the whole of the Roman Empire which extended across most of Europe and North Africa. Tribes from Arabia and the Middle East also bred with person's across the whole of northern Africa and into southern Europe, and also into central and West Africa. Both "black" and "white" Americans are as meaningfully so, or not meaningfully so, descended from ancient Egyptians. And then... many, if not most, "black" and "white" Americans are also bred with one another. Back to top Spiral Experienced User Joined: 03 Jan 2008 {Posts: 125 } Location: TnT Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2009 15:31    Post subject: I have a Question Does anyone know if Colorism existed around Cleopatra's time ? The reason i ask is because i found this article and this particular paragraph was very interesting . Quote: Specifically regarding Cleopatra, let us establish that there were several Cleopatra’s in Egyptian history. The one of legend and about which most people speak was actually Cleopatra VII. She was the daughter of Ptolemy XII called Auletes and Cleopatra V known as Tryphaenea. Finally, the fact that Auletes’ mother may have been Black did not seem to bother the Greeks. His mixed background was known and he still became pharaoh. It was the Romans who caused the problem and may have indirectly caused the destruction of the information which could have established whether or not Cleopatra was Black. At this time (80 BC to 51 BC) Auletes – Ptolemy XII – was paying tribute to Rome as both an ally and to avoid being invaded. Our research suggests that a move began in the Roman Senate to challenge Auletes’ right to be Egyptian Pharaoh in the Ptolemy line because he was not pure Macedonian Greek. Auletes (a scoundrel and playboy who spent little time actually ruling Egypt ) did two things to beat back the challenge to his rule. He bribed two powerful Roman senators – Ceasar and Crassus – to block the issue from coming up in the Roman Senate and just in case that failed he began hiding and destroying evidence about his mother. This is probably the reason that today we can find so little evidence about his mother’s background. http://www.washingtoninformer.com/ARSpecialReport2006Feb16.html Of course also what Ptolemy XII did was probably to save his throne and not because he was ashamed of his mother. Back to top Powell Guru Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2461 } Posted: Wed 26 Aug 2009 13:26    Post subject: Re: Cleopatra was part-African, documentary claims Spiral wrote: I saw the Documentary on Discovery, it was really interesting, if you guys get a chance, take a look at it :D Quote: Cleopatra may have been part-African and not Greek Caucasian, according to a British TV documentary to be shown this month. It has long been thought that the former Queen of Egypt's roots were in Greece, but the discovery of what experts believe are her sister's remains has revealed that the siblings had a part-African heritage. The BBC documentary Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer to be shown on March 23 shows the analysis of human remains in a tomb in Ephesus, Turkey. Using facial reconstruction and forensic techniques with anthropological and architectural analysis of the tomb, the experts are convinced that the skeleton is the remains of Cleopatra's sister, Princess Arsinoe, who was murdered on Cleopatra's orders. Archaeologist Dr Hilke Thuer from the Austrian Academy of Science, who led the team, said: "The results of the forensic examination and the fact that the facial reconstruction shows that Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/16/2516981.htm?section=entertainment http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/16/cleopatra-african.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/also_in_the_news/7945333.stm It's amzing how those authors are so ignorant as to say that "Caucasian" and "part-African" are mutually exclusive. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5377 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Fri 04 Sep 2009 00:56    Post subject: gemini072 wrote: At one time or by some Ethiopians were considered caucasian Actually, as of 1950, the scholarly consensus among U.S. physical anthropologists (following craniofacial anthropometry) was that the inhabitants of of Chad, Burkina Faso, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, and everywhere farther north were members of the "caucasoid subspecies". (The word "caucasian" had fallen out of fashion long before.) Back to top Creole GAL Wizard Joined: 12 Mar 2007 {Posts: 433 } Posted: Sat 12 Sep 2009 16:58    Post subject: I saw the Discovery show. Interesting. It was about Arsonie,her sister. Black Americans want to claim Cleopatra as Black. I think we can say she was not blond,violet -eyeded(Liz Taylor) or blue-eyeded as portrayed by many White actresses. She most probably looked like you see Middle-Eastern, Northern African, Egyptian native people of today. Other Egyptian rulers looked as they did by the tombs,tomb drawings,mummys,etc. Tut and Neffer looked as they did. There are too many sources to site about Cleopatra and you have listed many. Google was cleopatra part african What has not been discussed is her beauty or lack of it. Ugly,plain, but very smart. Beauitful and smart and maybe too smart as in for her own good because of her downfall. www.touregypt.net/magazine/mag04012001/magf4.htm This has been said since I was in grade school. There are many books,websites,that say both. Who is to know? No one has seen her in paintings. She made sure her body was not left. Back to top Shinynewthings New User Joined: 25 Aug 2009 {Posts: 22 } Location: California Posted: Sun 13 Sep 2009 02:20    Post subject: Creole GAL wrote: I saw the Discovery show. Interesting. It was about Arsonie,her sister. Black Americans want to claim Cleopatra as Black. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that some Afrocentrist want to claim her as Black, rather than saying "Black Americans" wish to do so? I'd venture to guess that the majority of Black Americans are too caught up in their own lives ( just like everyone else) to even care what color she was. Just my opinion. Back to top Creole GAL Wizard Joined: 12 Mar 2007 {Posts: 433 } Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 02:46    Post subject: Yes,Shiny. You are right. Back to top Dragon Horse SuperMentor Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 15:41    Post subject: Shinynewthings wrote: Creole GAL wrote: I saw the Discovery show. Interesting. It was about Arsonie,her sister. Black Americans want to claim Cleopatra as Black. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that some Afrocentrist want to claim her as Black, rather than saying "Black Americans" wish to do so? I'd venture to guess that the majority of Black Americans are too caught up in their own lives ( just like everyone else) to even care what color she was. Just my opinion. I feel comfortable saying that it is likely 50% or higher of black Americans have no idea who Cleopatra was and don't really care to know. Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2992 } Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 19:11    Post subject: Shinynewthings wrote: Creole GAL wrote: I saw the Discovery show. Interesting. It was about Arsonie,her sister. Black Americans want to claim Cleopatra as Black. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that some Afrocentrist want to claim her as Black, rather than saying "Black Americans" wish to do so? I'd venture to guess that the majority of Black Americans are too caught up in their own lives ( just like everyone else) to even care what color she was. Just my opinion. One need not be Afrocentrist to claim Cleopatra as black. It's probably more accurate to claim that some black people wish to claim her as black. Back to top Shinynewthings New User Joined: 25 Aug 2009 {Posts: 22 } Location: California Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 20:27    Post subject: G-Man wrote: Shinynewthings wrote: Creole GAL wrote: I saw the Discovery show. Interesting. It was about Arsonie,her sister. Black Americans want to claim Cleopatra as Black. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that some Afrocentrist want to claim her as Black, rather than saying "Black Americans" wish to do so? I'd venture to guess that the majority of Black Americans are too caught up in their own lives ( just like everyone else) to even care what color she was. Just my opinion. One need not be Afrocentrist to claim Cleopatra as black. It's probably more accurate to claim that some black people wish to claim her as black. True. I'm glad you corrected that, you don't have to be Afrocentric in the least to believe she was black or at least half black. I sent the wrong message by adding Afrocentrist. By the same token one need not be black to believe she was black either. I read on another board which had a discussion on Egyptian Civilization, many of the members believed that only a black person ( or an Afrocentric) would believe Egyptians may have been what today we call black. I don't think that's true. While many who hold this view do happen to be black, there may be many who aren't black. I knew this White guy who was a Africana Studies major, who believed that the Egyptians were black. Well, he believed that Egypt began as a black civilization, but later became a multiethnic ( mixed race) society. Nevertheless "some black people" (or maybe even just some people) would be more accurate. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5377 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 20:33    Post subject: ShinyNewThings please review The Posting Rules, when you get a chance. Specifically, check out paragraph 3.3.11. In future posts, when you use the word "Black," please try to make clear which meaning you intend: of sub-saharan ancestry, of sub-saharan appearance in your eyes, membership in the African-American ethno-political community, or something else entirely. Many people use many different meanings for the term and may be confused by your statements. Back to top Shinynewthings New User Joined: 25 Aug 2009 {Posts: 22 } Location: California Posted: Tue 15 Sep 2009 20:42    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: ShinyNewThings please review The Posting Rules, when you get a chance. Specifically, check out paragraph 3.3.11. In future posts, when you use the word "Black," please try to make clear which meaning you intend: of sub-saharan ancestry, of sub-saharan appearance in your eyes, membership in the African-American ethno-political community, or something else entirely. Many people use many different meanings for the term and may be confused by your statements. Ok, Sorry about that Frank. I think I mean African American ethno political community. I'll use that from now on. Edit: When referring to Egyptians as black I mean SSA. When I said what today we call black, I'm referring to how anyone with visual SSA is often labeled black by others, at least in the US ( in most cases I should say). I hope that makes sense. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> International Stories All times are GMT Page 1 of 1 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group