She really did a disservice in writing this book and embarrassed her family, esp., her father.
I beg to differ. Have you read the book? What is remarkable to me is the contrast between what she actually wrote (pro free self-identity, anti-ODR, refusal to see her father or herself as "Black) and the way that she has marketed the book (anti-choice, pro-ODR, proclaiming herself Black). I think that the disservice and embarrassment is in the marketing, not in the book.
No, I have not read her book. Ahhh, you will say, well, how can I say anything if I have not read her book.
I forgot to say to that.
Based on the twelve pages of posts, here, it seems she did not agree with her dad or she did not tell all sides of his history and the reasons why he made his choice. I was wrong. Good.
Yes, during the holidays , I'll see about reading her book. I'll probably scan over it only because her story is so, so common from these parts, LA and N.O.,LA. I already know Anatole Broyard's story.
I will say he was really extreme in not letting his mom, siblings see his kids. WoW! Why did he not change his surname? I've heard of people just disappearing back then before Anatole's time. Vanish! They changed names and the works back then and way before Anatole's time. Broyard is a real N.O.and LA surname. If his name was a common name and an American one, it would have been easier for him not to be traced. Some people are not that extreme, even today.
Like her father, I know many people today, young people aged 55- 20's, who live as White. I posted under ODR, that really, ODR in one way does not exists and never really did and cannot be proven, because these people , like Anatole, are White Americans. They look White. The live as White. They marry White. They cannot genetically even have black, brown, or even olive complexion kids.
They have 1 total Black or mixed Black person on their family tree out of 13 people or more who were pure White or mixed but more White than Black.
When I say this about ODR, I mean, some chose not to live under it then and didn't and some do not now, so they do not.
After generations,and marrying and having children by White people, they are not Black. I keep saying Black,but these people are really Creole, as Anatole was and as someone posted before. Creole is not recognized as an an ethnic group here.
Now, I will say, Anantole was White. Married White. Lived as White.
I wonder if he was tormented because he still had some contact with his mom and sister, Shirly. He did not change his surname. The letters his mom wrote asking to see the kids. It is sad that he did not do what some people do, and visit N.O. and the rest LA with his family. Show Bliss and Todd all of those culturaly rich things of his heritage Creole heritage (Creole cooking, food, extended family atmosphere, the Catholic churches, Catholic religious celebrations like MardiGras, All Saint's Day, weddings and on and on. I feel sorry for them, Bliss and her brother .
Even weddings are special because I do not know African culture and the jumping of the broom thing is something I see in Black movies now. N.O. weddings, Catholic Creole's, never had no broom jumping. I am a people person and I like to see or know other's cultures. I think the broom is great just the glass breaking. You also do not have the groom stepping on a glass. In a Catholic wedding, the bride and groom crown Mary. They present Mary with some flowers.
The end of the wedding and Creole parties, you have a Second Line.The bride has a pretty umbrella. It is something to see.
Anatole could have let his family know his little secret and exposed them just a little . Everybody around has White relatives in CA or some other states and some of those people know and have experienced N.O. just enough to know, but not enough to live Black. Some people, even today do that.
Their N.O. families know they live as White and people respect that.
Anatole could have done both. I really do sorry for that family, including his mom and sister.
On the other side, I know many people,Creole, who look White, could go and live as White, then and now, but don't. They live as Black and marry pure Black people. I think it is great! I think , however one wants to live his/her life Black,White,Gay,Straight, is great.
I will say he was really extreme in not letting his mom, siblings see his kids. WoW! Why did he not change his surname?
As far as I can tell from Bliss's book, Anatole made no secret of his Coloured Creole ancestry to anyone other than Bliss, and his separation from his sister was apparently a family squabble, not an escape from "Blackness". As I wrote in my review of the book:
fwsweet wrote:
Anatole’s wife, his friends, his business associates at work, his neighbors, some of Bliss’s and Todd’s little childhood friends, even the handymen who worked on his house, all knew of Broyard’s ancestry. Judging by the book, the only two people on the planet who did not know that Anatole Broyard was of Colored Creole heritage were Bliss and Todd, and I have my doubts about Todd.
Obviously, there was a falling out with his relatives. Anatole never let his children meet their Creole relatives and, in turn, he was vindictively and explicitly excluded from his sister Lorraine’s will. We shall probably never know what caused the rift. Nevertheless in the end, for whatever reason, he deprived his children of their rich cultural heritage.
Posted: Mon 21 Sep 2009 00:11 Post subject: Broyard
Creole GAL wrote:
No, I have not read her book. Ahhh, you will say, well, how can I say anything if I have not read her book.
I forgot to say to that.
Based on the twelve pages of posts, here, it seems she did not agree with her dad or she did not tell all sides of his history and the reasons why he made his choice. I was wrong. Good.
Yes, during the holidays , I'll see about reading her book. I'll probably scan over it only because her story is so, so common from these parts, LA and N.O.,LA. I already know Anatole Broyard's story.
I will say he was really extreme in not letting his mom, siblings see his kids. WoW!
In the book, Bliss admits that she did meet her paternal grandmother and Aunt Lorraine.
Why did he not change his surname?
From what I've read, few mixed whites who reject the ODR myth of "blackness" change their names. Why should they? They are not fugitives. No one is trying to track them down. They are not like Jews in Nazi Germany.
I've heard of people just disappearing back then before Anatole's time. Vanish! They changed names and the works back then and way before Anatole's time. Broyard is a real N.O.and LA surname. If his name was a common name and an American one, it would have been easier for him not to be traced. Some people are not that extreme, even today.
Mixed-Caucasians who reject the ODR and embrace a white identity seem to be a constant source of fascination, legends, rumors, etc. for those who DO embrace the ODR. However, rumors and legend do not substitute for research. You cannot truthfully say that you "know" Anatole Broyard's story without research.
Like her father, I know many people today, young people aged 55- 20's, who live as White. I posted under ODR, that really, ODR in one way does not exists and never really did and cannot be proven, because these people , like Anatole, are White Americans. They look White. The live as White. They marry White. They cannot genetically even have black, brown, or even olive complexion kids.
They have 1 total Black or mixed Black person on their family tree out of 13 people or more who were pure White or mixed but more White than Black.
When I say this about ODR, I mean, some chose not to live under it then and didn't and some do not now, so they do not.
After generations,and marrying and having children by White people, they are not Black. I keep saying Black,but these people are really Creole, as Anatole was and as someone posted before. Creole is not recognized as an an ethnic group here.
Creole has some recognition as an ethnic group, depending on who is speaking. On the old Interracial Voice web site, some Creoles promoted the Creole identity as a multiracial one (like Hispanics). Many Creoles now see themselves as a sub-ethnicity of the "African American/black/Negro" group and accept the ODR.
Now, I will say, Anantole was White. Married White. Lived as White.
I wonder if he was tormented because he still had some contact with his mom and sister, Shirly. He did not change his surname. The letters his mom wrote asking to see the kids. It is sad that he did not do what some people do, and visit N.O. and the rest LA with his family. Show Bliss and Todd all of those culturaly rich things of his heritage Creole heritage (Creole cooking, food, extended family atmosphere, the Catholic churches, Catholic religious celebrations like MardiGras, All Saint's Day, weddings and on and on. I feel sorry for them, Bliss and her brother .
Do you really think that Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and the others who condemned Anatole Broyard as "black" give a damn about Creole culture, Catholicism, etc.? It seems to me that they are angry because they wanted Broyard's achievements to be credited to blacks and his Euro genes to be returned to the "black endogamous group" (via marriage to someone black-identified).
Even weddings are special because I do not know African culture and the jumping of the broom thing is something I see in Black movies now. N.O. weddings, Catholic Creole's, never had no broom jumping. I am a people person and I like to see or know other's cultures. I think the broom is great just the glass breaking. You also do not have the groom stepping on a glass. In a Catholic wedding, the bride and groom crown Mary. They present Mary with some flowers.
The end of the wedding and Creole parties, you have a Second Line.The bride has a pretty umbrella. It is something to see.
Anatole could have let his family know his little secret and exposed them just a little . Everybody around has White relatives in CA or some other states and some of those people know and have experienced N.O. just enough to know, but not enough to live Black. Some people, even today do that.
Their N.O. families know they live as White and people respect that.
Anatole could have done both. I really do sorry for that family, including his mom and sister.
If Anatole's mom and sister really liked Creole culture and extended family that much, why didn't they return to New Orleans? Sister Shirley could be said to have rejected Creole culture by marrying a "Negro" and identifying as one. In Bliss Broyard's book, sister Lorraine says that she never married because her mixed ancestry made her unsure of where she belonged. I don't see where Anatole did them an injustice at all.
Consider also that Anatole protected his children from the very real stigma of "Negro blood."
It should also be recognized that Anatole, like his Jewish friends, had rejected his parents' nonintellectual, ethnic values to become a New Yorker and embrace an assimilated, intellectual, cosmopolitan life. Even Shirley Broyard, in the original Gates article, admits that her family had hardly any books in their home. As a book lover myself, I greatly sympathize with Anatole. His "rejection" of the family of origin's values is considered normal behavior among American Jews. Why shouldn't Anatole do it? Did the "black blood" make him too "inferior" to exercise the choices that other Americans take for granted?
Consider also that
On the other side, I know many people,Creole, who look White, could go and live as White, then and now, but don't. They live as Black and marry pure Black people. I think it is great! I think , however one wants to live his/her life Black,White,Gay,Straight, is great.
Why do you consider it "great" for people with Euro phenotypes and partial African ancestry to identify with blacks and marry "pure Black people"? Why isn't it "great" to do the opposite? Why are the black-identified whites lionized and the white-identified ones condemned as morally deficient by the black and "white liberal" gatekeepers? My opinion (based on years of reading and experience) is that black-identified whites are motivated by fear (fear of rejection by other whites. "black baby" throwbacks, etc.) and a dependence on being judged by skin color (a Euro phenotype is nothing special in this country unless you claim that you're not white - especially the very opposite of white) and hair texture. Ask yourself if a black-identified white is going to be far more likely to get that job, place in the university, etc. when he is competing only with the "real blacks." Equality can be frightening for some people. His supposedly "passing" relative believes he's just as good as other whites and is willing to be judged as an individual and not as a "genetic freak," which is probably what most Americans consider a "white black" to be. He's the one who, in my opinion, deserves the admiration.
To Powell, you have misunderstood me! I was not clear. Posting is not like having a conversation where you can answer back and forth.
It is hard to know where someone is coming from in a few sentences.
I'll answer all of your questions. I am glad you did not belittle me, but just hightlighted under where you didn't understand or agree with me.
Last edited by Creole GAL on Mon 21 Sep 2009 23:34; edited 2 times in total
*Bliss says in the book that she did meet her paternal grandmother and Aunt Lorriane. Good!
Someone posted that her paternal grandmother had asked Anatole to see the kids.
* Yeah, some Creole's who went Pass'aBlanc did change their names. No, they are not like Jews in Nazi Germany being hunted down for death.
Some Creole's who are Pass's Blanc have changed their names even now. They want to live as White and are White and don't want others "calling them out." I will not "out" anybody's new family name here. I KNOW many. Many. Some people add an accent. Some change the pronounciation. Others add or delete a letter.
I have an ancestors who vanished to be White, as does other Creole families also have , but that was way back. I know people today who have extended family members who are (Creole) Pass'a Blanc White.
Creole families here have people who are Pass'a Blanc, but you don't "out" them. I know my 1st, 2nd cousins are White. I know of other's family members who are White. That is their life and I am not going to "out" them. They do not want to be Black or anything associated with Black. They do not want to be Creole. They do not want to be mixed. They want to be White.
I will have to find the article online where Bliss met N.O. Broyards family in researching her book and in the article it was said that they all in their family had "hushed tones " of Anatole. I am saying no one, however, was going to pop up on Anatole's doorstep or office, or in his world .
Now, some people who live as White sort of do both worlds, but on their terms.
They'll mingle with extended family for some extended family things, but they live as White and away from N.O. and as White in their profession, neighborhood, kid's schools,and so on.
It is like this...an uncle once told me you people have siblings and they married Creole back then, and their kids marry White and some marry Black, some moved away , and some branches went White and some went Black and some stayed Creole in N.O.
*I do not embrace ODR nor reject it. Be whatever you want.
It is not some soucre of fascination, legend, rumor, etc. No, it is a reality.
You said I cannot truthfully know Anatole's story without research.
His story is very common here even in 2009. I know. I live it. I see it every day. I have family , friends, and etc. who know it and live it or reject. I come from it.
I am the research.
*Creole is not an ethnic group here. That is sad because it was an ethnic group same as Italians, Irish, Polish, Chinese, etc.,ethnic groups. group. Creole ethnic group was just as Cajun is still an ethnic group here.
There is a Creole culture still but language and much of it is lost more and more by people moing away from it. It is understandable that people marry other ethnic groups, but it is a culture that many have moved on from. Culturally,food, traditions, family connections, historic places , etc. are getting lost. People are not taking that with them as they move on. Creole language went out in N.O. when my parents were kids,70 so years ago. It was better and encouraged to speak English. N.O. was not so remote. You can still find people in the country towns who still speak some Creole.
Some things are historically wrong and inaccuarte.
People,Creole people with N.O. with ancestorial ties to N.O., are not around to defend history and Blacks, Creole-Blacks, African American Blacks,White American are writing history.
It is the in thing.
An example I often bring up is of Mother Henritte Delille, a Free Woman of Color , who was not African American. For her sainthood, the in thing is to say she was African American. If this is true , then you might as well say say The Civil War was a war between Slaves and the Sounthern Conderate States. DeLille was not African American, Black, Colored, nothing but a Free Woman of Color and that is why it is so significant that she did what she did. If she were Black,her story would have beengood tolike Sojourner Truth, but it would have taken on less importance for DeLille's good and saintly works. Delille was born to have a good life and she rejected her station in life to help others.
*Some people here consider themselves Creole. Some are Black.
Some go by African American. Some people are White. I say whatever
you want for yourself, fine.
*I agree with you about Henry Gates. It is like people like him and their disassociation with Tiger Woods. They could not get their hooks in him.
See above what I said about Mother Henritte DeLille. Same thing.
Changing history, you really take away from the facts.
I was referring to Bliss and her brother missing out on N.O.Creole cultural things with their extended N.O.family.
*One of his sisters went as Black and married Black. One did not marry.
Ok. Everybody has their choice.
*Shirly said there were hardly any books in the home. The rest of what you said, I don't understand because I have not read that. I would have to read Shirly's comments about her parents. He rejected his parent's non intellectual values,etc. People in Anatole's age group who stayed in N.O. went on to become laywers, teachers, doctors, professors, the works. I do not what his home life was like. People here in their 70's have kids who gone far in life too .
People here in Anatole's age group are not backwards, ignorant people.
Maybe Anatole and his then immediate family had issues.
I do not know.
Last edited by Creole GAL on Tue 22 Sep 2009 15:45; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue 22 Sep 2009 00:27 Post subject: Re: Broyard
Why do you consider it "great" for people with Euro phenotypes and partial African ancestry to identify with blacks and marry "pure Black people"? Why isn't it "great" to do the opposite? Why are the black-identified whites lionized and the white-identified ones condemned as morally deficient by the black and "white liberal" gatekeepers? My opinion (based on years of reading and experience) is that black-identified whites are motivated by fear (fear of rejection by other whites. "black baby" throwbacks, etc.) and a dependence on being judged by skin color (a Euro phenotype is nothing special in this country unless you claim that you're not white - especially the very opposite of white) and hair texture. Ask yourself if a black-identified white is going to be far more likely to get that job, place in the university, etc. when he is competing only with the "real blacks." Equality can be frightening for some people. His supposedly "passing" relative believes he's just as good as other whites and is willing to be judged as an individual and not as a "genetic freak," which is probably what most Americans consider a "white black" to be. He's the one who, in my opinion, deserves the admiration.[/quote]
I do not admire nor scorn Anatole for his choice of passing.
I do not care what people go as and who they mary.
I thought my post was too pro-Anatole and I wanted to make it clear that I think you are Creole-White and go as Black, GREAT!!
If you are Creole White and go as White, GREAT for you!
Many Creole look Hispanic and not White or Black Mixed. They go as other, Black,or Hispanic, GREAT!!!
Whatever your choice is, GREAT!!!
"Family life was very congenial, it was nice and warm and cozy, but we just didn't have any sort of cultural or intellectual nourishment at home," Shirley, who was the only member of the family to graduate from college, recalls. "My parents had no idea even what The New York Times was, let alone being able to imagine that Anatole might write for it." She says, "Anatole was different from the beginning." There was a sense, early on, that Anatole Broyard—or Buddy, as he was called then—was not entirely comfortable being a Broyard.
Gates' error in describing "race" of Anatole's first wife:
Quote:
Just after the war began, he got married, to a black Puerto Rican woman, Aida, and they soon had a daughter. (He named her Gala, after Salvador Dali's wife.) Shirley recalls, "He got married and had a child on purpose the purpose being to stay out of the Army. Then Anatole goes in the Army anyway, in spite of this child." And his wife and child moved in with the Broyard family.
Bliss Broyard actually interviewed Aida Sanchez (the Puerto Rican first Mrs. Broyard). Aida has a Euro phenotype and never considered herself "black". Moreoever, she told Bliss that she did not consider her husband and in-laws "black." She also reared Anatole's first daughter, Gala, in Texas (which was Jim Crow at the time) as white. That seems to be why Bliss says nothing about meeting her half-sister (as opposed to countless distant cousins).
During the holidays,I might read the book.
Like I said,I know many of these situations happening today.
I do find it odd that Anatole had a daughter he never acknowledged.
that is really deep.
I really think his parents and sisters had a dysfunctional family?
The thing his sister said about lack of books or being encouraged to go further in life, I find strange.
I wish I could ask Bliss questions. My questions would be:
When meeting her dad's extended N.O. relatives ,how did it feel for her being White, and yet being the dark one there? Meaning she has dark hair and eyes and I know some of the Broyard extended family members have blue-grey-green eyes, white skin, and blond-light brown hair?
Did she meet the White Broyards of CA assuming there are some? Did they want to meet her?
Does she have a relationship with her half-sister?
It is best to never have a chance to ask her questions.
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