Posted: Tue 27 Oct 2009 21:21 Post subject: Black American moves to Brazil--Plans to Stay
I came across this by accident and had to post this....After reading it, I really wondered where this person's head was at, especially his favorable rating of Brazilian police compared to the police in the U.S. who are always hunting black people according to him. There are a few Brazilians I know who don't share his opinion about the police in that country. There are some human rights groups who feel the same way. The comments are particularly interesting. Anyway, enjoy.
(Editor's Note: The following post comes from Francis L. Holland. A fellow Afrospear member who blogs over at The Francis L. Holland Blog as well as an assortment of great sites.Checkout how he breaks it down as he attempts to broaden your world view a bit.)
People here in Bahia, Brazil often ask me why I’ve come to live in a “Third World” country when I could live in the United States, where I was born, educated, and practiced law. I guess the simplest way to explain it is in terms of what drove me away, how I got to Brazil, and what makes me stay here.
When I lived in the United States, I was so depressed that I didn’t want to live anymore, even though I was becoming increasingly more recognized among immigration lawyers and non-profit program managers, was earning a good salary and drove a new car . . . I felt empty and lonely inside and didn’t want to be alive any more. I sought psychiatric help, but often the biggest barrier to care was the cheap-ass American insurance companies I had, even as a managing attorney in a large corporation. My doctors had to lie and say I was suicidal, even during weeks when I was feeling better, in order for my care to be covered.
Instead of just ending it all, I decided to do something equally dramatic. I enrolled in a USA university’s French language program and applied to learn French on the French Riviera, while living off student loans. In France, all of my medical care for my psychiatric illness was 100% covered by my French government insurance, which cost me about three hundred dollars a year. The Government also paid 30% of my apartment rent, because I was a student. I began to see more and more that the USA just isn’t “the best country in the world”, compared to what many other countries offer to their citizens and even to foreign students..
After 30 months in France, I was getting along quite well in French and was even enrolled in a doctoral program for international law. I had a doctoral thesis project and had passed a number of law courses taught entirely in French. Once again, though, I came to feel empty and purposeless in spite of the doctoral program, university friends, and an apartment near the beach. The depression and suicidal thoughts came back like a flock of locusts that won’t leave even after the fields have been picked dry.
One negative thing about my personality is that as soon as I learn to do something competently, then I don’t want to do it anymore. I constantly need new challenges, if only because confronting them distracts me from inner loneliness and emptiness. I couldn’t feel happy anymore in France. By 2003, with the Bush Administration’s ballooning war deficit devaluing the US dollar overseas, I just couldn’t afford to live in there anymore, and I thought that I had seen all that I would see there.
So, I researched countries where the US dollar was more valuable and took a bus to Krakov, Poland, where I contracted for an apartment much less expensive than the one in France, and returned to France to gather my things. (I was one of only three Black people I saw during a week in Poland, but I thought I could handle that.)
It was at this point that an Italian friend returned to France from a vacation in Brazil, accompanied by the most beautiful and enchanting young Portuguese-speaking girlfriend imaginable. Together they convinced me that I would be much happier in Brazil, where there is great Afro-Brazilian food, Samba, Pagode and Axé music and dance, Afro-Brazilian culture and heritage, and a uniquely Brazilian martial arts form called, Capoeira. The dollar went a long way, they assured me.
They convinced me that I would surely find the woman of my dreams in Brazil and begin a family, even with financial resources that in France were laughable. (A Coca Cola at a beach restaurant in Brazil costs one dollar, but it costs seven dollars in France, not including the fifteen dollar French charge just for occupying a beach chair.)
After some Internet research, I decided to give Brazil a chance. I sold everything I had (car, kayaks, law books, tools, stove and dishwasher) and was able to buy a ticket to Brazil, with two hundred dollars to spare. I couldn’t afford to travel for a mere visit to Brazil, while continuing to pay rent and monthly expenses in France. So, I had to jump into Brazil with both feet or not at all.
Brazil, I discovered, is a country of 200 million people, so large that it “occupies nearly half of South America” and is and is the fourth most populous democracy in the world. With a hundred million Black and brown people, (1/2 the population) Brazil has the largest Black presence outside of Africa itself, including:
7.4% classifying themselves as preto (black skin color) and 42.3% as pardo (brown color). The latter classification is broad and encompasses Brazilians of mixed ancestry. A caboclo is a term used in Brazil describing a person of mixed Indigenous peoples in Brazil and White people descent. In Brazil, a caboclo is a specific type of mestizos . . . making the total 49.5%. The largest concentration of Afro-Brazilians is in the state of Bahia where over 80% of the people are descendants of Africans. Absolute Astronomy
If you have never been to a part of the world where Black people and our culture are in the majority, it’s hard even to imagine how freeing it is. It’s wonderful to walk into a store or restaurant and not have anyone wondering, “What is HE doing here,” because most of the people are Black and there is nothing remarkable about your skin color. It’s wonderful to have all commerce stop for a week in February for Carnival, which is an intense national multicultural celebration of Black culture.
When I arrived in Brazil, a childhood friend who is now a psychiatrist diagnosed my mental illness as “post-traumatic slavery syndrome,” exacerbated by the constant pressure of being Black in the USA. Like a burn victim who can’t recover until he gets out of the fire, I couldn’t begin to recover from living in United States until I was living somewhere else. I thought he was crazy, but it makes sense to me now.
In Bahia, where 80% of the population is Afro-descendant, the official culture is Afro-Brazilian, with Afro-Brazilian dance and music daily featured on television, and real discussions occurring about what this culture means and how it evolved, and how it is a force for growth now and in our future. Here, Afro-Brazilian music and beats play on the streets, in beachside restaurants, in clubs . . . virtually everywhere.
Lunches and dinners of black beans and rice, okra and sweet pumpkin, fried fish, grits and jambalaya would make many Black Americans feel more at home here than in my native Massachusetts. And the variety of fruits here is simply amazing.
Brazil still has obvious skin-color aroused problems, but it also has laws to protect Blacks from the worst affronts to our dignity. Article 3, Sections XLI and XLII of the Brazilian Constitution say:
The Law will punish all discrimination against fundamental rights and liberties. [including the fundamental right not to be subject to discrimination.] The practice of racism constitutes a crime not subject to bail, and subject to imprisonment, according to the terms of the law.
In Brazil, whites have no First-Amendment “right” to call Blacks “monkeys” or the “N” word, or to insist that we are genetically inferior. Instead, that sort of behavior elicits the virtual guarantee a swift arrest, particularly when there are witnesses or other convincing evidence that the law against “racism” has been violated.
(Compare that to my experience walking with a white woman in Providence, Rhode Island, and having two white men scream from a pickup truck, “What are you doing walking with that “N” word?!” In the United States, I had no legal recourse; those whites had a Constitutional right to say that to us, which makes me strongly question the “wisdom” and intent of the Foundering Fathers.)
In this part of Brazil, it is so common to see multi-colored groups of tourists and bi-chromatic couples that the term “interracial” doesn’t even make sense here. At least 50% of the population has “interracial” ancestry and comes from a polychromatic family. So, to see a beige and a brown person together and call them “interracial” is like saying San Francisco and Los Angelos are interstate cities. With so many white-skinned Brazilians who have one Black parent and a Black cousin, the strict belief in “race” doesn’t carry the weight that it does in the United States. My kids say its “racist” to consider differences in skin color when deciding whom to date and marry.
The relationship between Blacks and police is different in much of Brazil as well. In the US, we Blacks immediately sense trouble when we see police officers, regardless of their skin color. When whites say, “The police are your friends,” we just roll our eyes in disgust. In Brazil, both the death penalty and life imprisonment are unconstitutional.
In the state of Bahia, by contrast, the majority of police officers are Black, and they walk among the rest of us like neighbors and friends, rather than like the occupying force they are in our United States communities. For example, there are four SWAT-like police officers who live in our condominium complex and all are Black. They carry machine guns and automatic weapons, but we are not their targets. They are our neighbors – not beasts of prey who travel to the inner-city from their suburban homes each day.
It took me probably a year in Brazil to stop automatically fearing police, but now I see Brazilian police as citizens, like members of any other profession. Young and handsome Black men and women. I have a close friend who is graduating from the police academy, sponsored by another mutual friend of ours. In Brazil, I don’t feel like, as a Black man, I am being hunted, targeted and under siege anymore.
Blacks are better integrated into Brazil’s voting population, and voting is far easier here than it is in the United States. In fact, it’s a requirement that Brazilian citizens vote, or explain why they were unable to do so. Therefore Brazilian politicians have to spend their efforts convincing the electorate, rather than manipulating and discouraging Black turnout on Election Day.
The poor seem as likely to vote as the rich, and the Blacks as likely as whites, which is a fact manifested in the election of President Lula Ignacio Lula da Silva, who once lost a finger when he was a machinist; who went on to lead the machinists’ union; and then won the presidency on his third candidacy. If Lula has his way, the next president of Brazil will be the first woman president, and will continue Lula’s social policies, including free medical care for all, and designated seats for Blacks and the poor at the nation’s universities.
I’m not as lonely here. In 2005, I married an Afro-Brazilian woman, and I have three adolescent step-children, God help me. I’ve shared with my wife my and my family’s experiences with color-arousal in the United States, but my wife asks me not to tell her the news I report in my Police Brutality Blog and Electrocuted While Black blog. She says hearing those accounts just leaves her angry and disgusted.
As someone who suffers from chronic depression, readily accessible medical care and medication are essential to me. In Brazil there is a national government system of hospitals, clinics and pharmacies that provide free medical care regardless of who you are (Brazilian or foreigner) and without inquiring about income, social status, or requesting payment of any kind.
If you have a serious car accident in Brazil with multiple injuries, you can be treated at a Government hospital without any insurance and without receiving a bill afterward. Health workers even visit patient’s homes to remind them of appointments.
Because I struggle with depression, I need to see a psychiatrist at least every two months for a fresh medication prescription. Unlike the United States, where there were co-pays and limits on treatment visits, and where I had to pay for medications out-of-pocket, the doctors at the neighborhood clinics here see me here for free, and I receive the medications I need for free at the same government clinics. Nonetheless, because of poverty and its attendant risk factors, Brazil’s overall infant mortality rate is almost four times higher than that of the United States. And abortion is illegal.
Many Brazilians idealize the USA, mostly because they’ve never had to actually live there. They would never imagine that USA for-profit hospitals secretly dump uninsured patients on the streets in front of homeless shelters. They couldn’t imagine waiting six weeks to see a dentist or paying a thousand dollars for a root canal, since dentists here have walk-in availability and charge only $150.00 for a root canal.
Instead of paying through the nose in the United States for dental care, it’s often cheaper to fly to Brazil, have a dental vacation, and return home with money to spare. Brazilians couldn’t even imagine going to the emergency room for a broken arm and getting a five thousands dollars invoice afterward. Invoices and credit card swipers don’t exist in Brazil’s national health care system.
There’s something about the dignity and creativity of Brazilians that impresses me: Poor Black people have far more autonomy in Bahia than in the United States. Many Blacks who would be suffering unemployment in the US with their level of education are instead running their own businesses in Bahia, selling and fixing bicycles, motorcycles and cars, owning restaurants, bed and breakfasts and Internet cafés, making and selling art works from jewelry to African-inspired clothing and sculptures . . .
The imagination and self-determination of Afro-Brazilians makes me proud to have brown skin, when I see us selling fresh coconut water, carving human heads from coconuts, and using dried coconut shells to make and sell colorful necklaces and earrings. Instead of sound trucks, humble Brazilians have massive sound systems mounted on bicycles. They advertise their clients’ wares and effectively have their own businesses.
Even though I lived in the US for 37 years and in Brazil for only five, I know far more self-employed Blacks here than I did in the United States. In Bahia, there are fewer rules and less regulation to prevent a person from starting a business in his home or on the street.
Brazil reminds me of my African roots. If you want to “Free Your African Hair”, there are self-employed men and women who work at booths or stools in the streets of Bahia, waiting to braid your hair for twenty dollars or less. They also braid white tourists’ hair.
Yes, Brazil has its problems. Basic sanitation like sewers and running water are lacking in the poorest neighborhoods of many cities, and criminals parade with impunity. Public education is sometimes as lousy and precarious as it is in US cities, and many young people who can’t find jobs turn to selling drugs instead, with the attendant murders and other crimes.
The murder rate is four times higher in Brazil than in the US, according to the US State Department, with heavily armed drug cartels battling each other and often defeating police on the streets of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. These cartels burn buses (after emptying them) and destroy the police’s armored cars and helicopters with high-powered rifles and grenades. Innocent Brazilians die daily when they’re caught in the crossfire.
Just as the rich in the USA help themselves to public monies through the military-industrial complex, and prison industry, much of Brazilian state and national budgets is lost to embezzlement by government officials and their associates. Hundreds of millions of dollars just disappear while local mayors literally build castles for themselves and fly about in helicopters, taking their families to Europe on their Government expense accounts. But Brazil is not at war with any country, and the rich steal peacefully – not by starting wars of imperialism.
Brazil is a lot of fun and Carnival is coming. If you visit Brazil, here are a few tips:
If you come to Brazil, bring a little extra money and get all of your root canals and crowns done in a week or two, for 20% of what it would cost in the United States.
Most stories of tourists losing their passports and money start with the phrase, “I was just having a few beers . . .” When you’re navigating a new culture and language it’s better to do so sober, like flying a plane.
In Brazil, drug dealers will sell you baking soda as blow, and then kill you if you are foolish enough to return and complain.
Prostitutes may well drug you and then take all of your money. Thieves and com men target foreigners who look, dress and act like wealthy tourists, so stop at a cheap clothing store and dress yourself up like the humble Brazilians you see on the street. If strangers call out to you, “amigo” or “Americano”, it’s best to get the hell away from them as quickly as possible. They know what (they think) you have, and they want it.
What still needs a world of work here is national television. There is one television show with twenty women dancing behind the host, and sometimes only one of the twenty is has brown skin. An advertisement for the new Salvador Shopping Mall in the capital of this 80% Black state has over fifty photos of models as shoppers, but none of the shoppers are Black. How does that happen in a country that is half Black?
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Wed 28 Oct 2009 01:24 Post subject:
I know this guy he is close with certain radical left wing black bloggers like this guy...who does "Assault on Black Sanity", "Field Negro". The former is a music exec (supposedly) who grew up as an military brat in Germany or something to that effect. The latter is a Jamaican immigrant who is now a lawyer in Philly, both his parents were Phds. Not exactly oppressed minorities...however they "speak for the masses". I used to argue on "Assault on Black Sanity" when it was open to the public. There was another guy Craig Nulan, who writes another blog (Subrealism) about various financial conspiracy theories, peak-oil, etc. Craig is actually a highly intelligent guy (unlike the former). He is from St. Louis, went to MIT I believe, and does a lot of stuff in the community, runs his own IT Security shop. I feel he spends too much time apologizing for the black under-class though, especially the criminal element, but as I said, I have some respect for him, but not the others. There is also BT, he is more of an old head, die-hard Democrat partisan, thinks blacks and Hispanics are destined to unite and defeat "the man" sees racism almost everywhere, surprisingly on other issues he is somewhat conservative, but that has to do with him being a successful small business guy (also IT related). BT is very intelligent, sounds like he is about 60 or so, was in the black nationalist movement at the end of the civil rights movement, appears to have went to a good university and done some great things in his field I guess. I believe his story as I've communicated with him on and off on various blogs for about 5 years. I've went head to head with all these people over different issues. They are not even close to mainstream in opinion, etc. (well unless you just hang out with black nationalist then they are pretty mainstream).
Anyway, that is who you are dealing with, the company he keeps. The author of the above, never really impressed me much as being an original thinker although is identity is open and he has apparently accomplished what he claims, at least some of it, but I don't know much about him so I will stop there.
Quote:
If you have never been to a part of the world where Black people and our culture are in the majority, it’s hard even to imagine how freeing it is. It’s wonderful to walk into a store or restaurant and not have anyone wondering, “What is HE doing here,” because most of the people are Black and there is nothing remarkable about your skin color. It’s wonderful to have all commerce stop for a week in February for Carnival, which is an intense national multicultural celebration of Black culture.
While I understand what he is saying, I think when he says "our culture" he is betraying his black nationalism. Brazilian blacks, predo, etc don't have African American culture and I know many blacks from various parts of Africa and they don't have more culturally in common with African Americans than white Americans, that is just false. This is his racialism and inferiority complex talking. Racism or the racism he has perceived here likely made him so depressed (along with his black nationalist ideology that told him he was always surrounded by the enemy would always be a victim, etc) that he can only feel comfortable or even sane around people he feels look like them and the fact they look like him is all that really matters, despite what he is saying, it is obviously not culture.
Joined: 04 Oct 2006 {Posts: 228 } Location: CT/U.S.A.
Posted: Wed 28 Oct 2009 14:52 Post subject:
Why is the way he feels so strange?
It's hardly the first time a successful "African"/"Black"-American has said and/or felt this way about America and/or felt this way about finding a place where he/she isn't made to feel like an "alien", especially if those people tend to look like him/her, so appealing. So why is this surprising to anyone, especially on this particular site?
Since I've been able to comprehend history, I've read stories about this very same phenom - "African"/"Black"-Americans leaving America for other lands in which the people didn't treat them indifferently or as second/third class citizens. Depending on the career/job, some of these feelings are evidently still relevant today.
I, for one, can attest to being one of the only "African"/"Black"-Americans in every Level II/III IT job I've ever had in the last 12 years, so I can attest for feeling "alone" at times, especially during after work/offsite "Happy Hour" outings with co-workers/colleagues.
Also, IMO, I don't see what is so funny about the term “post-traumatic slavery syndrome”. In short, that is definitely a past issue with "Blacks" in the Diaspora, particularly Americans of Afro-descent, that has been passed down generationally from our parents/grandparents. At least that's the case with "African"/"Black"-Americans over the age of 35.
I liken his experience to self-identified "Mulattos" finding a place where they feel they belong/fit in (whether it is a virtual online community/website or a tri-"racial" country/area that has a "middle phenotype" as the average mean), it's practically the same IMO. The author found a place that he felt comfortable and where he felt the people looked and acted more like him, even if culturally, they were/are different, socially speaking, he could identify with them and their struggle because, in his eyes, as well as science, their experiences are much the same or cloe enough he can relate.
I totally understand where he is coming from but I won't be moving to another country because, IMO, my (our) ancestors went through entirely too much "shit" for me to just pack up and leave... screw that!! This country/land is just as much "Ours" as it is "Theirs". "We" (Americans) are all in this togather, IMO. Anyone who doesn't like it or approve of it can kiss my natural brown azz!
my (our) ancestors went through entirely too much "shit" for me to just pack up and leave ...
The above is a clear violation of The Rules, para 2.4 (Do not use first-person plural pronouns.)
Sankofa wrote:
Anyone who doesn't like it or approve of it can kiss my natural brown azz!
The above is a borderline violation of The Rules, para 1.1 (The site forbids expression of ethnopolitical solidarity.)
Please consider yourself warned.
(And please, please do not reply that this site is hostile to A-A solidarity. Doing so will trigger your immediate suspension. This site is intentionally hostile to A-A solidarity, just as it is is hostile to White solidarity, Creole solidarity, Italian-American solidarity, Irish-American solidarity, Asian-American solidarity, “Mulatto” solidarity, Latino solidarity, Jewish solidarity, Muslim solidarity, and every other form of identity politics.)
Joined: 04 Oct 2006 {Posts: 228 } Location: CT/U.S.A.
Posted: Wed 28 Oct 2009 17:58 Post subject:
Okay, Frank. I apologize for using "first-person plural pronouns". But you are mistaken in thinking I was using it as an "expression of ethnopolitical solidarity".
If anything, it was national solidarity - as in all Americans, regardless of "color"/ethnicity. If it was an "expression of ethnopolitical solidarity", I definitely would have written the sentence you quoted from me as follows:
"This country/land is just as much "Ours" as it is "Theirs". "We" (only "Black" Americans) are all in this togather, IMO. Anyone who doesn't like it or approve of it can kiss my natural "Black azz!"...
...instead of using brown. I'm pretty sure people have noticed since I first started posting here a few years ago that I've always put ethnic/"racial" terms in quotations when writing about "race" because they are all socialized "racial" terms that don't actually have any intrinsic value to them other than what people psychologically/emotionally put on them. Hence, why I wrote "brown azz" as oppossed to "Black" azz. Hopefully, everyone follows what is being said here?
But I do see where you are coming from and how it may have been perceived as such. I just wish you could see where I am coming from... sometimes, at least. Warning is noted and I will take heed. Peace.
If anything, it was national solidarity - as in all Americans, regardless of "color"/ethnicity.
I understand. That is why I said it was borderline, because the statement could conceivably be interpreted the other way.
You apparently perceive the central oddity of the issue raised. To other nationalities, Americans are all the same sort of creature, good or bad depending on contingency. Some A-As see their bonds with others of mostly African appearance to be stronger than their bonds with others of similar language, religion, music, dance, folklore, and song. But this phenotype-based commonality is not shared by others. To people in other lands, Americans of every phenotype are the foreigners.
I have known and supervised A-As who chose to live/work overseas. They, their wives, and their children adjust better to societies the closer those societies culturally resemble the U.S. They adjust better in Brazil than in, say, Sri Lanka. They adjust better in Sweden than in Brazil. And they adjust best of all in the UK or Australia. Once you are overseas, language, religion, and social customs become more important than phenotype. Nevertheless, in my experience, this was something that each ex-pat had to learn for themselves (usualy when their wives and kids hit them over the head with it).
Joined: 04 Oct 2006 {Posts: 228 } Location: CT/U.S.A.
Posted: Wed 28 Oct 2009 19:19 Post subject:
^ I definitely agree with you on that. My family on both sides were/are military and have lived all over the world and they have basically said what you have just said above. Peace.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Thu 29 Oct 2009 00:53 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
I have known and supervised A-As who chose to live/work overseas. They, their wives, and their children adjust better to societies the closer those societies culturally resemble the U.S. They adjust better in Brazil than in, say, Sri Lanka. They adjust better in Sweden than in Brazil. And they adjust best of all in the UK or Australia. Once you are overseas, language, religion, and social customs become more important than phenotype. Nevertheless, in my experience, this was something that each ex-pat had to learn for themselves (usualy when their wives and kids hit them over the head with it).
Frank I agree. I"ve lived in China and Japan. I was immediately close to the Brits, Australians, and especially the Canadians, black, white, or Asian, it really didn't matter. If they were born in those nations, native English speakers, we were close.
In fact I will rank them.
Americans
Canadians
British
Australians
In that order. After that I would say French more than Germans (I knew a few of both). This was my experience. My wife is Japanese so I had Japanese friends and I speak Mandarin, I'm familiar with both cultures, but although I had friends who were East Asian (Korean as well), I was closest to the people from the Anglo-Sphere...we had the most in common, it was like you could relax with them and just talk. I would say the only time I had problems is when two Aussies were around and they spoke to each other in their dialect, that's about it. The Canadians to me were basically no different than Americans and despite some nationalism we got on the best, I guess that is not shocking.
There are black Africans in China and Japan, especially Nigerians in Tokyo. I knew two, but they were more foreign to me than the Japanese to be honest. The Japanese at least grew up in developing nations and had a lot of exposure to American culture (even if they did not act American they often did many of the same activities for entertainment, had similar living standards, etc)...the Africans I met (mostly Nigerians, Ghanians, Senagalese, and Kenyans) were very foreign. They would usually look at me hard or ask me where I was from, to see if I was from their country, region, or tribe. When they found out I was America they often rarely tried to talk long, unless they wanted to do some sort of business.
This is when I realized how little race connects people outside a racialized America.
"fwsweet": have known and supervised There are black Africans in China and Japan, especially Nigerians in Tokyo. I knew two, but they were more foreign to me than the Japanese to be honest.
dragon fly; This is when I realized how little race connects people outside a racialized America.[/quote]
Interesting because I have always been quite accepted by subSaharan Africans, especially those out of West Africa (not necessarily by those from the sahel region though). I guess they detect more African culture in me as a Caribbean person than they do in you as an African American. Also by Latin Americans from countries with some African influences (Brazil, DR, Cuba, PR, Panama) definitely moreso than by Mexicans and others.
I also dont necessarily think that I am more accepted by British people (despite a part British colonial heritage) than by those from Mediterranean countries. Also I am more accepted by AAs with a definite Southern identity (raised in the northeast by southern parents) than by those lacking such links. More by Jews than WASPS (there again notwithstanding my Anglo/American links).
Definitely in both the UK and the USA interactions with "blacks" (as so identified) have been easier than with whites.
As to those who I am accepted the least by. Hands down East Asians who might as well be from another planet. Not one thing in common.
I wouldnt say that skin color on its own establishes a link but to the extent that it correlates with some cross cultural intersections, or heritage, it certainly provides a basis for interaction. Sometimes it might be just a metter of sharing a contemporary status heritage of being an outsider, a colonial background, a status of a visible minority or whatever.
I know this guy he is close with certain radical left wing black bloggers like this guy...who does "Assault on Black Sanity", "Field Negro".
I prefer to see such people as race socialists as opposed to radical left wing...But that's just me.
I posted this article because some his experiences and reflections are similar to mine when I did my brief six-month sojourn in Brazil. I should point out that the author lives in Bahia, specifically the city of Bahia, and so his impressions are probably of that city and not the country as a whole. If he ventured into the interior of the state or some other northeastern states, the people and culture would not be as obviously African, but African derived, at least in part, nonetheless. If he went to the states like Para, Amazonas, or someplace in the center or south of the country, the accounts of his experiences would probably be different and maybe less positive (?).
His comment about the police in Brazil and his comfort around them is hilarious. The police there can be seriously corrupt and brutal. Not uncommon in many Latin American countries.
I know this guy he is close with certain radical left wing black bloggers like this guy...who does "Assault on Black Sanity", "Field Negro".
I prefer to see such people as race socialists as opposed to radical left wing...But that's just me.
I posted this article because some his experiences and reflections are similar to mine when I did my brief six-month sojourn in Brazil. I should point out that the author lives in Bahia, specifically the city of Bahia, and so his impressions are probably of that city and not the country as a whole. If he ventured into the interior of the state or some other northeastern states, the people and culture would not be as obviously African, but African derived, at least in part, nonetheless. If he went to the states like Para, Amazonas, or someplace in the center or south of the country, the accounts of his experiences would probably be different and maybe less positive (?).
His comment about the police in Brazil and his comfort around them is hilarious. The police there can be seriously corrupt and brutal. Not uncommon in many Latin American countries.
G-MAN, is there a thread where you give us your personal impression of Brazil? If not, what were they? Different than what you expected?
G-MAN, is there a thread where you give us your personal impression of Brazil? If not, what were they? Different than what you expected?
I think some years back Frank Sweet asked me about my personal recollections. They are on here somewhere. Mind you, I went there in 1993 and my views on race were pretty much like those of most Americans. My pre-arrival impression of the place was that most Brazilians were black (racially) and they would be better off if they simply embraced U.S. conceptions of race. I was also under the impression that most people there were white, black or mulatto (light-skinned black) and every place in the country was like Rio.
I wasn't expecting the diversity of phenotypes and the Amerindian influence in the appearance of the people there. Many non-white people wouldn't even fit neatly into a "mulatto" category or phenotype either. Even in many northeastern states (I spent most of my time there in the state of Sergipe where few tourists go), especially in the interior, there were many people who simply looked like mestizos from Central America or Mexico to me. I was also surprised at the sizeable number of poor white people (or what is considered white) out there.
Also, I wasn't aware of the regional differences there and regional identities. Many people I encountered had a strong northeastern identity, inlcuding the guy I stayed with. I was also surprised at how incredibly European-looking the people of the extreme south were. They mostly looked like people plucked from Germany or Italy. with a few seemingly mestizo-looking people here and there.
Another thing that really surprised me was the existence of both neo-Nazi groups and the Nation of Islam in Brazil. I found out about the existence of both because of an allegedly racially-motivated murder of a black student by some neo-Nazi skinheads in Sao Paolo. The news story I read, if I remember correctly, quoted some local Nation of Islam minister in Sao Paolo about the incident. Both groups probably aren't large or significant, but their existence surprised me. According to one of the Brazilian guys my group worked with, these neo-Nazi groups often target northeasterners. I often wondered how the two groups chose members, especially Nazis, since so many Brazilians don't fit neatly into either black or white groupings. A reliable source has told me that the Nation of Islam operates in Colombia as well.
As far as how I viewed people there racially, I'd say most people to me in Sergipe, even the seemingly better off people, were some kind of non-white person, with people of seemingly predominant African ancestry and predominant Iberian ancestry in the minority. The former, IMO, outnumbered the latter, but both were dwarfed by a more "ambiguous group". "Pardo" or brown is very fitting descriptor for the largest group.
How I was perceived varied from place to place. In the extreme south (Santa Catarina), I was black, in the northeast and elsewhere not really. Of course there were no hard and fast rules governing which descriptor to apply to people. Many people in the community where my group lived assumed I was from another Latin American country like Venezuela. After telling them I was from the U.S., some assumed I must have been Puerto Rican. One woman even told me that people with my color don't exist in the U.S. Many people in that remote area assumed that there were two types of Americans: very African-looking and very European-looking, nothing in between.
Needless to say some of these people had some very strange ideas about race in the U.S. and race relations here.
Last edited by G-Man on Tue 10 Nov 2009 20:17; edited 1 time in total
G-MAN, is there a thread where you give us your personal impression of Brazil? If not, what were they? Different than what you expected?
I think some years back Frank Sweet asked me about my personal recollections. They are on here somewhere. Mind you, I went there in 1993 and my views on race were pretty much like those of most Americans. My pre-arrival impression of the place was that most Brazilians were black (racially) and they would be better off if they simply embraced U.S. conceptions of race. I was also under the impression that most people there were white, black or mulatto (light-skinned black) and every place in the country was like Rio.
I wasn't expecting the diversity of phenotypes and the Amerindian influence in the appearance of the people there. Many non-white people wouldn't even fit neatly into a "mulatto" category or phenotype either. Even in many northeastern states (I spent most of my time there in the state of Sergipe where few tourists go), especially in the interior, there were many people who simply looked like mestizos from Central America or Mexico to me. I was also surprised at the sizeable number of poor white people (or what is considered white) out there.
Also, I wasn't aware of the regional differences there and regional identities. Many people I encountered had a strong northeastern identity, inlcuding the guy I stayed with. I was also surprised at how incredibly European-looking the people of the extreme south were. They mostly looked like people plucked from Germany or Italy. with a few seemingly mestizo-looking people here and there.
Another thing that really surprised me was the existence of both neo-Nazi groups and the Nation of Islam in Brazil. I found out about the existence of both because of an allegedly racially-motivated murder of a black student by some neo-Nazi skinheads in Sao Paolo. The news story I read, if I remember correctly, quoted some local Nation of Islam minister in Sao Paolo about the incident. Both groups probably aren't large or significant, but their existence surprised me. According to one of the Brazilian guys my group worked with, these neo-Nazi groups often target northeasterners. I often wondered how the two groups chose members, especially Nazis, since so many Brazilians don't fit neatly into either black or white groupings. A reliable source has told me that the Nation of Islam operates in Colombia as well.
As far as how I'd viewed people there racially, I'd say most people to me in Sergipe, even the seemingly better off people, were some kind of non-white person, with people of seemingly predominant African ancestry and predominant Iberian ancestry in the minority. The former, IMO, outnumbered the latter, but both were dwarfed by a more "ambiguous group". "Pardo" or brown is very fitting descriptor for the largest group.
How I was perceived varied from place to place. In the extreme south (Santa Catarina), I was black, in the northeast and elsewhere not really. Of course there were no hard and fast rules governing which descriptor to apply to people. Many people in the community where my group lived assumed I was from another Latin American country like Venezuela. After telling them I was from the U.S., some assumed I must have been Puerto Rican. One woman even told me that people with my color don't exist in the U.S. Many people in that remote area assumed that there were two types of Americans: very African-looking and very European-looking, nothing in between.
Needless to say some of these people had some very strange ideas about race in the U.S. and race relations here.
Very enlightening details. I can almost imagine the contrast between the Brazil you had in mind and the reality. I cannot help but assume that this trip gave you a much broader and in depth understanding of how the concepts of social race are defined and just how fluid they are in LatinAmerica. Much of what you say also reminds me of when I, as a young US raised Dominican was sent as a pre-teen to DR, it was a bit of a culture shock. And you're right, those neat labels of black and white or even mulatto many times just don't apply.
And now for another Anthro. related question if you don't mind....we all want to know, which region had the most appealing women?
And have you ever noticed how body language is very cultural?
I'll explain: I've seen very Germanic looking Brazilian women, but there is absolutely nothing 'Germanic' about their body language, they are as Brazilian as the stereotypical mulatta/parda/negra. Don't know if I am explaining myself correctly. Actually this goes for all LatinAmericans.
have you ever noticed how body language is very cultural? I'll explain: I've seen very Germanic looking Brazilian women, but there is absolutely nothing 'Germanic' about their body language, they are as Brazilian as the stereotypical mulatta/parda/negra.
Very true. Speaking of Germans and Brazilians, one of the more obvious body-language differences is that conversing Brazilians stand closer together than do Germans.
In the early 1970s, I worked for a company that had factories in both Germany and Brazil. We were to move a production line from Mainz to Campinas (SP) and so we sent a bunch of Brazilian engineers to the German plant to learn the systems and manage the transfer. The first evening in Germany we had an informal get-together so that each Brazilian could meet their German counterpart.
I noticed that the Brazilians, being friendly, would approach closer to the Germans than the latter were comfortable with. This caused each German to take a step back, which caused the Brazilian to take a step forward, which caused the German to take another step back, and so forth.
I was in stiches. It was like some weird dance. For two hours I watched the Brazilian engineers waltz their counterparts around the room. Ocassionally, a German would get trapped in a corner and become increasingly agitated until finally breaking free in desperation.
Very enlightening details. I can almost imagine the contrast between the Brazil you had in mind and the reality. I cannot help but assume that this trip gave you a much broader and in depth understanding of how the concepts of social race are defined and just how fluid they are in LatinAmerica. Much of what you say also reminds me of when I, as a young US raised Dominican was sent as a pre-teen to DR, it was a bit of a culture shock. And you're right, those neat labels of black and white or even mulatto many times just don't apply. .
I’d say it afforded me the opportunity to develop an understanding based on actual experience. Prior to that, I had more of an academic understanding, which was lacking IMO.
CIMMERIAN wrote:
And now for another Anthro. related question if you don't mind....we all want to know, which region had the most appealing women?
LOL..Shades of Anthro Forum ….I think it’s a matter of personal taste for most people. For me, I’d say the Northeast and Minas Geraes had the most appealing women. Better looking than the women I saw in Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, or the South. Some very attractive women in Bahia, Alagoas, and Sergipe (the places I visited), though I was told by a few people that the women in Sergipe weren’t all that attractive. Personally, I wouldn’t say that, but I suppose they were speaking comparatively.
On another note, one thing I did see that was positive and surprising, at least to me, was the non-trivial number of people of very visible African ancestry in downtown Sao Paolo who seemed to be working in white collar occupations. This assumption was based solely on these folks wearing business attire, carrying brief cases, etc. I have no way of knowing if this assumption was accurate though, but it wasn’t what I was expecting.
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I used to argue on "Assault on Black Sanity" when it was open to the public. There was another guy Craig Nulan, who writes another blog (Subrealism) about various financial conspiracy theories, peak-oil, etc. Craig is actually a highly intelligent guy (unlike the former). He is from St. Louis, went to MIT I believe, and does a lot of stuff in the community, runs his own IT Security shop. I feel he spends too much time apologizing for the black under-class though, especially the criminal element, but as I said, I have some respect for him, but not the others. There is also BT, he is more of an old head, die-hard Democrat partisan, thinks blacks and Hispanics are destined to unite and defeat "the man" sees racism almost everywhere, surprisingly on other issues he is somewhat conservative, but that has to do with him being a successful small business guy (also IT related). BT is very intelligent, sounds like he is about 60 or so, was in the black nationalist movement at the end of the civil rights movement, appears to have went to a good university and done some great things in his field I guess. I believe his story as I've communicated with him on and off on various blogs for about 5 years. I've went head to head with all these people over different issues. They are not even close to mainstream in opinion, etc. (well unless you just hang out with black nationalist then they are pretty mainstream).
