"Los blancos, morenos/Cobrizos, cruzados/Marchando serenos,/Unidos i osados,
La Patria salvemos/De viles tiranos/Y al mundo mostraremos/Que somos hermanos." Juan Pablo Duarte
Jamaica's motto. "Out of many one people". yet browns and blacks battle each other daily using class as the vehicle for conflict (old vs new money). Trinidad & Tobago "Together we aspire together we achieve". Tensions between dark and light skinned Trinis (regardless of race), and between Afro and Indo Trinis, well known. Guyana "One people one nation, one destiny". No nation in the America is so devastated by subliminal ethnic tribalism.
CIMMERIAN contrary to what you say Cocolos when they first arrived were not liked by Dominicans and did not intially have an easy time.
You are again essentially repeating what I've previously said. Can you please provide a quote in which I state otherwise? They've been pretty consistent. They faced hardship & discrimination when they first arrived.
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I suspect that to the extent that their situation improved it was the superior education and skills which they brought with them that allowed them to overcome their initial disadvantages and the Trujillo racist period.
One can conjecture as to how they would have ultimately been viewed if they arrived with the levels of illiteracy and lack of skills of their Haitian counterparts. And of having a phenotype almost indistinguishable from Haitians.
And doesn't this debunk your highly racialized theory of Dominicans viewing everything thru a anti-Hatiancentric/black lens? Does this example not prove that anti-Haitian sentiments are not indiscriminately applied to people merely on the basis of skin color/phenotype?
You seem to follow this formula:
-Haitians are black
-Dominicans dislike Haitians
-Therefore Dominicans dislike blacks
-Some Dominicans are black
-Therefore Dominicans don't like them either (or themselves)
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Luperon was not part of the Cocolo migration, was born in the DR and had a Dominican ather.
Please provide a quote where I state he is. I specifically quoted g-mans post and specified Anglo-Phone Caribbean. AngloPhone Caribbean is wider and general, Cocolo is very specific.
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I am interested in who his mother really was.
All my sources only describe her as a ''black English immigrant' from the British islands (Anglophone Caribbean).
It will be nice if we can discuss race/color/identity without confining it to the highly unusual US definitions of race. The USA is the ONLY one drop nation. Not even South Africa adopts this rule. So a comparison with West Indians will mean that a mixed category will be recognized. In fact most Dominicans will be considered to be "dark red", or in a Latin parlance, dark mulato. So referencing West Indians will suggest not one drop, but to suggest a non Eurocentric notion of identity which privileges the African heritage alongside the European heritage and will suggest a historic narrative from the point of view of the majority of West Indians, i.e. telling the story of the slave, not the planter or colonial governors.
The popular perception of West Indians is blacks. Not saying this is correct, but that is the most commonly perceived image, specifically an Anglophone black Caribbean. That is why I mentioned the one drop.
Dominican national self-identity evolved similar to the rest of LatinAmerica, and the Dominican immigrant story also evolved similar to Puerto Ricans. Just do a compare and contrast with DominicanYorks being viewed pretty much along the same lines as Puerto Ricans view NewYoricans.
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clearly from a west Indian point of view the stereotypical Dominican is mixed. The question will be are they the type of mixed race people who "tink dey white", an accusation thrown at mixed race people in the Anglophone Caribbean who have traditionally looked down on their darker skinned compatriots.
It's very curious that I keep reading about Dominicans who 'think they're white' on various internet forums. Curious because the majority don't self-identify as 'white' in DR or in the USA.
I reference Moya Pons as I mentioned Saillant Torres, BOTH Dominicans and therefore indicative that not every Dominican has notions of idnetity in accord with yours. In fact a Dominican on another thread (Nelson) even suggests that Latins have a tendency to deny that colorism is a problem within their societies. I have no doubt that you will reference Dominican intellectuals who have a perspective more kin to yours. Clearly there is an emerging diversity in how Dominicans see themselves, how they view their attitude sto their African heritage and "race" and other Caribbean peoples, maybe even Haitians.
No, I was not talking about Dominican (and non-Dominican) intellectuals who according to you share a perspective similar to mine, not at all.
These various authors have various different academic perspectives, some very foreign and even anti-Domincian, but the findings in their real life studies throw a big monkey wrench on their theories. These findings are not academics waxing idealogical arguments, these are the results of work with Domincans (both on the island and in the USA) themselves. I find it amazing that some academics can veer so far off, only to have real life put them back onto square one of what posters here have been saying all along.
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Now as an indicator of the preferences of Dominicans, how many dark skinned Miss Dominican Republics have been entered into the Miss Universe contest? Is their the diversity in phenotype that one will see with Trinidad & Tobago as an example?
Dominican beauty contestants vary greatly in phenotype. What I've noticed is a trend to send those with a more European influenced phenotype to the Miss Universe and those with more visible admixture to other contests (Miss World, Miss LatinAmerica, etc.) Of course we've visibly black and black admixed represantives to all contest.
"Los blancos, morenos/Cobrizos, cruzados/Marchando serenos,/Unidos i osados,
La Patria salvemos/De viles tiranos/Y al mundo mostraremos/Que somos hermanos." Juan Pablo Duarte
Jamaica's motto. "Out of many one people". yet browns and blacks battle each other daily using class as the vehicle for conflict (old vs new money). Trinidad & Tobago "Together we aspire together we achieve". Tensions between dark and light skinned Trinis (regardless of race), and between Afro and Indo Trinis, well known. Guyana "One people one nation, one destiny". No nation in the America is so devastated by subliminal ethnic tribalism.
Slogans at best suggest a goal, not reality.
Then the reality of DR is not very comparable to those nations.
-No civil war along color/racial lines.
-No color/race based massacres
-No race/color based political parties.
-No seperate 'white/black/mixed' subculture or minority group
-No seperation by race/color
"Los blancos, morenos/Cobrizos, cruzados/Marchando serenos,/Unidos i osados,
La Patria salvemos/De viles tiranos/Y al mundo mostraremos/Que somos hermanos." Juan Pablo Duarte
Jamaica's motto. "Out of many one people". yet browns and blacks battle each other daily using class as the vehicle for conflict (old vs new money). Trinidad & Tobago "Together we aspire together we achieve". Tensions between dark and light skinned Trinis (regardless of race), and between Afro and Indo Trinis, well known. Guyana "One people one nation, one destiny". No nation in the America is so devastated by subliminal ethnic tribalism.
Slogans at best suggest a goal, not reality.
Then the reality of DR is not very comparable to those nations.
-No civil war along color/racial lines.
-No color/race based massacres
-No race/color based political parties.
-No seperate 'white/black/mixed' subculture or minority group
-No seperation by race/color
Guyana in particular is not very comparable.
A lot of these racial tensions are overblown by the media
[The popular perception of West Indians is blacks. Not saying this is correct, but that is the most commonly perceived image, specifically an Anglophone black Caribbean. That is why I mentioned the one drop.
.
Well on behalf of the many West Indians of East Indian, Chinese, European, Amerindian and mixed ancestry you are wrong. In fcat Trinidad is 62% NON African identifying and Guyana 70%. The other islands usually around 10%.
In fact many African Anglophone Caribbean people with a strong ethnopolitical identity as blacks will tell you of having non African ancetsry. Sorry no one drop here and neither do West Indians assocaite that with Dominicans. What ever they think about Dominicans, and there is confusions or pity from some, its not because they say that they arent black. Its the whole "Indio" thing but then you and others have explained that its not about pretending to be Taino rather than African. Its a color description, much as West Indians will describe some one as "red", even though people with red skin are kind of hard to find.
clearly from a west Indian point of view the stereotypical Dominican is mixed. The question will be are they the type of mixed race people who "tink dey white", an accusation thrown at mixed race people in the Anglophone Caribbean who have traditionally looked down on their darker skinned compatriots.
It's very curious that I keep reading about Dominicans who 'think they're white' on various internet forums. Curious because the majority don't self-identify as 'white' in DR or in the USA.
I deliberately used the vernacular because "tink you white" doesnt mean that one calls themselves white. It means that one disowns their non white (usually African) heritage and thinks that they are better than more fully African descended folks. The people who tell you about their Scottish ancestors but "forget" to mention their African ones.
If Dominicans living in the Anglophone Caribbean were to try and pull that stunt (and I am not saying that they do) it will result in hilarious laughter as they are perceived as occupying the most demeaning occupations (domestics, hotel cleaners and prostitutes) in these islands. Usually working under the supervision of blacks, including brothel owners.
No, I was not talking about Dominican (and non-Dominican) intellectuals who according to you share a perspective similar to mine, not at all.
These various authors have various different academic perspectives, some very foreign and even anti-Domincian, but the findings in their real life studies throw a big monkey wrench on their theories. These findings are not academics waxing idealogical arguments, these are the results of work with Domincans (both on the island and in the USA) themselves. I find it amazing that some academics can veer so far off, only to have real life put them back onto square one of what posters here have been saying all along.
[.
How have these DOMINICAN intellectuals (Saillant-Torres, Moya Pons and William Javier Nelson) veered so far off? Because their perspective on this differs from how many/most Dominicans wish to project themselves?
Why is it difficult to believe that a Dominican living in the USA who looks black and is treated as black might begin to accept themselves as black Dominicans and then bring this ideology down to the DR. And that a Dominican who does not look black might think differently. Based on different life experiences. Even I have heard of some darker Dominicans who talk about "blackness" differently from how it might traditionally be seen in the DR and talk about Dominican attitudes to this as well. I also dont know that these people are projecting that most Dominicans agree or disagree with them. In fact I think that Moya Pons is depicting a society that might be transitioning because of its exposure to life in the USA and to peoples from other parts of the Caribbean. Not some much in total, but in terms of the evolution of many diverse views on the topic.
In fact I can think of a very dark skinned professional Dominican woman (hair in corn row style, she hates straightening it) , who because of her non mixed appearance (and I guess grooming) says that she is usually seen as AfricanAmerican. Thus is privileged to hear quite racist comments made by Dominicans about African Americans, including her. She then laughs at the shock when she responds to them in Spanish making them know that not only did she understand what was being said but that she too is Dominican. I do not think that she is either lying or anti Dominican because she became offended when the mainly West Indian guests (it was a party at some one's home) adopted a feeling of superiority at "these poor self hating people". I wasnt sure if she was a Cocolo or not. I suspect they might have a different attitude to race than you think based upon theri West Indian heritage. Many of those that I see in St Kitts are groomed with locks, braids or cornrows.
Last edited by caribj on Thu 19 Nov 2009 01:22; edited 2 times in total
"Los blancos, morenos/Cobrizos, cruzados/Marchando serenos,/Unidos i osados,
La Patria salvemos/De viles tiranos/Y al mundo mostraremos/Que somos hermanos." Juan Pablo Duarte
Jamaica's motto. "Out of many one people". yet browns and blacks battle each other daily using class as the vehicle for conflict (old vs new money). Trinidad & Tobago "Together we aspire together we achieve". Tensions between dark and light skinned Trinis (regardless of race), and between Afro and Indo Trinis, well known. Guyana "One people one nation, one destiny". No nation in the America is so devastated by subliminal ethnic tribalism.
Slogans at best suggest a goal, not reality.
Then the reality of DR is not very comparable to those nations.
-No civil war along color/racial lines.
-No color/race based massacres
-No race/color based political parties.
-No seperate 'white/black/mixed' subculture or minority group
-No seperation by race/color
Guyana in particular is not very comparable.
As your fellow compatriot, William Javier Nelson said in another thread here Latins arent always willing to admit that there is aproblem. That however doenst mean that all is well.
Now if Dominicans are undifferentiated I will expect no correlation between color and class. So your ghettoes should have proportionately the same numbers of darker people as your mansions. One cannot blame ethnically specific pathologies if this is not the case as in the USA, if there is no separate sub culture. One cannot balme the legacy of slavery a some in Brazil do, as slavery was not a very significant factor in the DR.
So if there is color/class correlation, and many say that there is why is this so? To break it down (to pull numbers out of a hat) if 60% of Dominicans are dark skinned then so should 60% of those living in the ghetto and in the mansions based on your theory.
Is this the case?
And before some one raises color/class correlations in Haiti, Jamaica and elsewhere that topic is worn to death and few debate historic and to an extent even contemporary bias against darker people in those societies. Witness the debate on skin lightening creams used by SOME darker urban women in those societies.
Well on behalf of the many West Indians of East Indian, Chinese, European, Amerindian and mixed ancestry you are wrong.
No, I'm not wrong because I personally know about the many different ethnic heritages in the Caribbean. Try to read carefully what you quote and this way you can better reply to what was actually posted instead of what you imagined it to be.
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In fact many African Anglophone Caribbean people with a strong ethnopolitical identity as blacks will tell you of having non African ancetsry
Thats cool.
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Sorry no one drop here and neither do West Indians assocaite that with Dominicans.
Never said there was US style One Droppism among West Indians. And neither did I say West Indians associate this with Dominicans.
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What ever they think about Dominicans, and there is confusions or pity from some, its not because they say that they arent black.
I will take whatever you personally say regarding West Indians' perceptions of Dominicans with a giant grain of salt. You do know that NY & NJ cities like East Orange, Irvington, Paterson have a very visible West Indian community of which I've known practically my whole life? Many Jamaicans vacation in DR, I've heard nothing but good things both about DR & it's people.
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Its the whole "Indio" thing but then you and others have explained that its not about pretending to be Taino rather than African. Its a color description, much as West Indians will describe some one as "red", even though people with red skin are kind of hard to find.
??? Can any other West Indian posters here comment on wether the average West Indian even knows this much about DR. Just curious as to how another countries descriptor can be the basis for 'confusion or pity' by other countries who don't even speak the same language. It's almost like if I said Dominicans are upset that some South Americans use mestizo to just mean mixed instead of Euro/Amerind. lol.
I deliberately used the vernacular because "tink you white" doesnt mean that one calls themselves white. It means that one disowns their non white (usually African) heritage and thinks that they are better than more fully African descended folks. The people who tell you about their Scottish ancestors but "forget" to mention their African ones.
Then this is a very irrelevant comment because Dominican migrants self-identify along either Panethnic lines (Latino, Hispanic) or nationality (Dominican). If asked about their phenotype/ancestry majority would most likely say mixed.
Well on behalf of the many West Indians of East Indian, Chinese, European, Amerindian and mixed ancestry you are wrong. In fcat Trinidad is 62% NON African identifying and Guyana 70%. The other islands usually around 10%.
Caribj has 24 hours to provide a source for these implausible numbers or to unambiguously retract them. (They are implausible because I doubt that one Trini in a thousand self-identifies as "African" (as opposed to Trinidadian or a subset thereof).
As your fellow compatriot, William Javier Nelson said in another thread here Latins arent always willing to admit that there is aproblem. That however doenst mean that all is well.
You're being very unreasonable. No one is claiming perfection or some utopian-like society. And again, your reply does not directly address what you quoted. Here, let me break it down for you:
1. You dismissed a quote from DR's idealogical founding father, Juan Pablo Duarte as a mere 'slogan'.
2. You then mention slogans from other countries and color/race/ethnic and their particular rivalry & conflicts.
3. I then make various statements about DR.
Instead of veering off to another angle, can you refute or dismiss any of those specific statements? Can you really compare Guyanese ethnic conflicts to DR?
it will result in hilarious laughter as they are perceived as occupying the most demeaning occupations (domestics, hotel cleaners and prostitutes) in these islands. Usually working under the supervision of blacks, including brothel owners.
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when the mainly West Indian guests (it was a party at some one's home) adopted a feeling of superiority at "these poor self hating people".
caribj,
Just wanted you to know that we (any poster who reads your posts) are aware of the fact that you've constantly peppered your posts with thinly vieled backhanded comments (aka talking sidewise) about Dominicans (lowly positions, prostitutes, causing panic, confused/self-haters) and their supposed perception by West Indians.
You've implied that DR's full membership in CARICOM is somehow influenced by Dominican self-idenity and the Haitian immigration issue. You've also tried rather weak divisive tactics by romanticizing Cuba, supposedly viewed positively by other Non-Hispanic Caribbean islands due to their 'black ethnopolitics' unlike DR or PR.
Just making sure you know that: -Dominican pride is not dependent on the random opinions of an anonymous internet handle.
-Your interest regarding DR's self-identity seems to be not motivated by only scholarly interest.
Well on behalf of the many West Indians of East Indian, Chinese, European, Amerindian and mixed ancestry you are wrong. In fcat Trinidad is 62% NON African identifying and Guyana 70%. The other islands usually around 10%.
Caribj has 24 hours to provide a source for these implausible numbers or to unambiguously retract them. (They are implausible because I doubt that one Trini in a thousand self-identifies as "African" (as opposed to Trinidadian or a subset thereof).
I don't know the exact numbers/percentages but the majority population in Guyana as well as Trinidad is not afro (black) but indo (East Indian). And if you are addressing non-afro identifying including the whites, partagee, syrians, chinese, indigenous (buck), spanish as well as any numbers of combinations the numbers could very well be 62% & 70% respectively.
Now if you are doubting the term "African" it is a term that is sometimes used instead of "black" in the islands. Black = afro = african = afro-{insert island}. this has been covered on this site in the past on more than one occasion.
In Trinidad, 'black' and 'African' are increasingly being used as ethnic identifiers -- in preference to 'Creole', which would include whites -- because Trinidadian politics is increasingly about ethnicity.
The current government, interestingly, faced with Hindu and Muslim objection to the highest national honour being called the Trinity Cross (because this is seen as as much ethnic as religious), asked a white immigrant to take charge of resolving the problem.
Otorongo on Mon 11 Jun 2007 07:58 am wrote:
Yeah, there it seems African and Indian are the dichotomy.
Well on behalf of the many West Indians of East Indian, Chinese, European, Amerindian and mixed ancestry you are wrong. In fcat Trinidad is 62% NON African identifying and Guyana 70%. The other islands usually around 10%.
Caribj has 24 hours to provide a source for these implausible numbers or to unambiguously retract them. (They are implausible because I doubt that one Trini in a thousand self-identifies as "African" (as opposed to Trinidadian or a subset thereof).
I don't know the exact numbers/percentages but the majority population in Guyana as well as Trinidad is not afro (black) but indo (East Indian). And if you are addressing non-afro identifying including the whites, partagee, syrians, chinese, indigenous (buck), spanish as well as any numbers of combinations the numbers could very well be 62% & 70% respectively.
Now if you are doubting the term "African" it is a term that is sometimes used instead of "black" in the islands. Black = afro = african = afro-{insert island}. this has been covered on this site in the past on more than one occasion.
In Trinidad, 'black' and 'African' are increasingly being used as ethnic identifiers -- in preference to 'Creole', which would include whites -- because Trinidadian politics is increasingly about ethnicity.
The current government, interestingly, faced with Hindu and Muslim objection to the highest national honour being called the Trinity Cross (because this is seen as as much ethnic as religious), asked a white immigrant to take charge of resolving the problem.
Otorongo on Mon 11 Jun 2007 07:58 am wrote:
Yeah, there it seems African and Indian are the dichotomy.
The whole thing is so Fluid, it all depends on the Circumstances, one day one can be Black or the next day of mixed race, one can identify with particular ethnic group or one can just be a Trini.
Right now their is a large group identifying as mixed race, but all that can change, it's why the Afro dominated Goverment wins the elections most times.
the numbers could very well be 62% & 70% respectively.
Of course. And they could very well not be. The numbers might be 61 or 63 or 69 or 71 or 3.1415926. That is the point. If you cite numbers in this website, you had better be prepared to back them up.
CIMMERIAN wrote:
You [Caribj] have constantly peppered your posts with thinly vieled backhanded comments (aka talking sidewise) about Dominicans ... Your interest regarding DR's self-identity seems to be not motivated by only scholarly interest.
I agree and I think it is time to stop it. On the one hand, I think that the ongoing exchange between Caribj and Cimmerian has been informative and educational, and therefore supports the site's mission. On the other hand, Caribj's inability (or refusal) to stick to a subject or to articulate a consistent thesis, as I have previously requested, makes the thread inordinately hard to follow.
Accordingly, I will tolerate no more messages in this thread that either (1) fail to focus on the formation of ethnopolitical self-identities in the DR, or (2) that contain surreptitious value judgment.
Last edited by fwsweet on Thu 19 Nov 2009 19:37; edited 2 times in total
Its the whole "Indio" thing but then you and others have explained that its not about pretending to be Taino rather than African. Its a color description, much as West Indians will describe some one as "red", even though people with red skin are kind of hard to find.
??? Can any other West Indian posters here comment on wether the average West Indian even knows this much about DR. Just curious as to how another countries descriptor can be the basis for 'confusion or pity' by other countries who don't even speak the same language. It's almost like if I said Dominicans are upset that some South Americans use mestizo to just mean mixed instead of Euro/Amerind. lol.
Speaking as someone who is of West Indian parentage born and bred in the U.S., many people, my parents included, see Dominicans as self-hating because they are really black but don’t see themselves as such. The extent of their knowledge about the Dominican Republic doesn’t extend beyond merengue music, and many assume the use of “indio” really means that Dominicans think of themselves as Amerindian people no matter what you tell them. I should point out that there are some books and documentaries about the Dominican Republic that support this view. So, that notion might be based what they’ve seen and heard. Examples include Do Platanos Go Wit' Collard Greens? and others.
In general, the attitude with respect to the DR works this way:
"Different varieties of blackness" or a black ethno-political identity is a necessary guarantor against colorism and feelings of shame about African features, hair, or ancestry, etc. People with any African ancestry ought to embrace a black identity similar to the one constructed in the U.S. because only then will these people be on the road to combating things like shadism/colorism , hatred of “black features”, even classism. We all know these issues don’t plague that African American community. Right?
People or cultures that reject a black ethno-political identity are seen as necessarily self-hating. ALL Dominicans are therefore ashamed of their African ancestry, with the exception of those few courageous ones who embrace a black ethno-political identity (not to be confused with black as a descriptor or acknowledgement of African ancestry). Consequently, any negative information about such people or their societies is to be accepted as completely true, no matter how much it deviates from the actual historical reality. If it is useful for me to think that Dominicans really believe themselves to be “burnt Indians”, then it’s true. What the term means in the Dominican context is irrelevant. If it sounds good to me that blacks in the Dominican Republic are rejected by their non-black family members as being “Haitian”, so be it. If it really makes sense to me that Trujillo’s massacre of Haitians was really a massacre of black people in the DR, then that is the reality. Of course if you deny this and assert that Haitians were the targets and some black Dominicans perished as well because they were thought to be Haitian by the military, you are then justifying the massacre of the Haitians and probably lying anyway. We all know Trujillo and by extension Dominicans hate black people, even though they really are black themselves.
People from the DR who challenge these partially true or completely false claims about Dominican society AND reject the adoption of a black ethno-political identity for the bulk of Dominicans (again not to be confused with the rejection of black as a descriptor or African ancestry) are necessarily denying that there are issues of color or shadism in the Dominican Republic, and they can be dismissed as promoting a false image of the Dominican Republic as a multi-racial utopia, which we all know doesn’t exist anywhere in the world, or asserting that all black Dominicans are really Haitian, which we know is foolishness.
Most people I know tend to process things this way when dealing with the Dominican Republic, including me at one time.
Speaking as someone who is of West Indian parentage born and bred in the U.S., many people, my parents included, see Dominicans as self-hating because they are really black but don’t see themselves as such.
Interesting. Do you mean they see Dominicans as 'really black' as in majority having black admixture or that they are perceived as black along similar lines like the popular common perception of West Indian blacks (Jamaicans, Bajans, etc.)?
The reason I ask is because I was raised among them and from what I noticed is that they tend to view Dominicans either along Panethnic lines 'Spanish people', Latinos, Hispanic or nationality, very akin to Puerto Ricans. As far as phenotype/race, I also ran into Latinos of pred. Afrodescendancy being view along these same lines. Majority that I know do tend to be aware somewhat of African ancestry among Caribbean latinos, but these same Latinos self-identify along ethnic or nationality here in the USA, not along race/color lines.
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I should point out that there are some books and documentaries about the Dominican Republic that support this view. So, that notion might be based what they’ve seen and heard. Examples include Do Platanos Go Wit' Collard Greens? and others.
It's actually the most popular view, in particular by certain segments and repeated almost verbatim. I also find it a bit strange that 'mejorar la raza' is overly applied to DR when it is a common phrase all over LatinAmerica. I've never seen that play, but it seems like the main point is making the Dominican girl look like (again) she is 'confused' about her 'race', a self-hater and suffering from colorism unlike her African American boyfriend.
In general, the attitude with respect to the DR works this way:
Quote:
"Different varieties of blackness" or a black ethno-political identity is a necessary guarantor against colorism and feelings of shame about African features, hair, or ancestry, etc. People with any African ancestry ought to embrace a black identity similar to the one constructed in the U.S. because only then will these people be on the road to combating things like shadism/colorism , hatred of “black features”, even classism. We all know these issues don’t plague that African American community. Right?
lol, well put. A couple of the more radical posters we both know fit that mold.
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People from the DR who challenge these partially true or completely false claims about Dominican society AND reject the adoption of a black ethno-political identity for the bulk of Dominicans (again not to be confused with the rejection of black as a descriptor or African ancestry) are necessarily denying that there are issues of color or shadism in the Dominican Republic, and they can be dismissed as promoting a false image of the Dominican Republic as a multi-racial utopia, which we all know doesn’t exist anywhere in the world, or asserting that all black Dominicans are really Haitian, which we know is foolishness.
Most people I know tend to process things this way when dealing with the Dominican Republic, including me at one time.
Excellent analysis. You've just described the feeling I get whenever trying to establish sometype of dialogue with non-Dominicans in general, but in particular those with a US influenced racecentric view.
I recall that when you went to Brazil it proved to be a very valuable experience as opposed to just reading about what various authors have to say. I have to wonder if this would be true if you ever take a trip to DR, wether it will either confirm or refute alot of the most popular perceptions. If you don't mind, what revised or made your view evolve of Dominicans?
'
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