Are you talking about Anglo and French Caribbean people on their respective islands or those who reside in the U.S.? .
It's my opinion that Dutch and French-speaking Caribbeans (Haiti included) are more pan-Caribbean in their cultural orientation than either Spanish or English-speaking Caribbeans.[/quote]
The identification with Cuba exists within the Caribbean where Cuba is seen as a diverse culture with a large African and mixed component. And it is so promoted in the Caribbean, where as an example, they ensure that most of the doctors who they send are non whites, many black.
In the USA not so because we are broken into the black, hispanic boxes and also Cuban exiles are mainly white. Also many Caribbean migrants who left the Caribbean a while ago have missed the increasing ties that are now developing between the different language groupings within the Caribbean itself. Many study in Cuba but also in PR but yet they consider PR alien, ironically despite that island, until recently, being a major shopping hub for many in the Eastern Carib. Not just about standing up to the USA because Chavez does so, and also offers goodies yet there is no identification with Venezuela.
In fcat I have read in Jamaican papers the theory that Castro is a "brown" man, which clearly isnt true, but I guess they look at the texture of his beard.
The French Antillean islands only have eyes for France. They are the least integrated of all in the rest of the Americas. Even though Haitians travel everywhere they appear to have a very high degree of identity as Haitians and, to the extent that they identify with any, it appears definitely the nonHispanic Caribbean. But with conditions and suspicions.
Last edited by caribj on Thu 19 Nov 2009 01:29; edited 1 time in total
[ In post-emancipation Jamaica, the beleaguered White population allied with the Coloured elite (the descendants of the famous Maroons) to keep down the free Blacks.(17)s.
The Coloureds. more popularly known as brwon people, or "browning" are certainly not Maroons. The Maroons are a group of people fiercely proud of their African ancestry and heritage who live in relatively isolated parts of Jamaica. They had contempt for the "slaves" and so were sometimes used by the British to keep down the latter. Not because they identified ith the pwoer structure but because they viewed the "slaves" as a self hating people apt to betray them to the white man and they wante dthem no where near their own Maroon communities.
On the other hand the brown people were off spring of Africans and white men. If their fathers were wealthy they acquired education, property and became a very powerful group in Jamaica by he late 18C. Even now they remain quite powerful, accounting for a large % of the professional, management and business classes, though the first two categories now mainly consist of blacks. Historically they distanced themselves from their African heritage and their black relatives. Clearly that is usually less so these days.
Please provide a source for the claim of a three-caste society in Cuba. I have never seen any objective evidence of such a thing, neither in restrictive laws nor in genetic discontinuity. See, for example, the "Discontinuity" section of Features of Today’s Endogamous Color Line. You may be conflating Cuba with the former B.W.I.
Last warning. Caribj's posting privilege will be suspended 24 hours from now unless he posts a source for the above implausible claim or unambiguously retracts the claim.
In addition, Caribj also disputed my claim that "In post-emancipation Jamaica, the beleaguered White population allied with the Coloured elite (the descendants of the famous Maroons) to keep down the free Blacks." My claim was backed up by the citation: Eric Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (New York: Harper & Row, 1988) page 215 and Frank W. Sweet, Legal History of the Color Line: The Rise and Triumph of the One-Drop Rule (Palm Coast FL: Backintyme, 2005) page 99. (Incidentally, see The Rules 3.1.5.) His rebuttal was the mere assertion that the "Mulatto elite" (Foner's terminology) of 1838 Jamaica did not in fact descend from the Maroons. Caribj is now required to back this up with a source within 24 hours or unambiguously retract the unlikely claim.
Since Caribj's last suspension for rules violation was for 8 months, his next suspension will be for 16 months.
In the USA not so because we are broken into the black, hispanic boxes and also Cuban exiles are mainly white. Also many Caribbean migrants who left the Caribbean a while ago have missed the increasing ties that are now developing between the different language groupings within the Caribbean itself.
How long is a while ago in your opinion? I've met Anglo Caribbeans who migrated to the U.S. as recently as 10 years ago who don't see Spanish-speaking Caribbeans, including Cubans, as people with whom they have much in common. Further, not all Cubans who live in the U.S. are white. In fact, many in New York and New Jersey are not. IME, many Anglo Caribbeans are not likely to see these Cubans as fellow Caribbeans either. They are more likely to see Cubans as fellow Caribbeans than Dominicans and Puerto Ricans, but not much and they don't know much about Cuba. Again, this is based on my experience.
caribj wrote:
Many study in Cuba but also in PR but yet they consider PR alien, ironically despite that island, until recently, being a major shopping hub for many in the Eastern Carib. Not just about standing up to the USA because Chavez does so, and also offers goodies yet there is no identification with Venezuela.
But Venezuela is in South America not the Caribbean, so non-Hispanic Caribbeans aren't likely to see Venezuelans as Caribbean people or identify with the place as Caribbean, though culturally it is to some degree.
And how many non-Hispanic people actually study in Puerto Rico compared to Cuba? I'd venture a guess and assume that the overwhelming majority of those that study in Puerto Rico are from the U.S. Virgin Islands.
I've met Anglo Caribbeans who migrated to the U.S. as recently as 10 years ago who don't see Spanish-speaking Caribbeans, including Cubans,
That may be true, and while i cannot speak for the rest of the Anglo-Caribbean emigrants , some of the people who left Trinidad for the U.S. and other nations, came from backgrounds where exposure to the Hispanic Caribbean countries were limited in normal day to day life, because they were preoccupied with earning a living.
Contrast that with someone who may be a lot better off who does not feel compelled to leave the country, who also can afford to travel for pleasure, study and work in those countries , they would look at Non -Anglo countries as fellow Caribbeans, it's all about exposure.
Please provide a source for the claim of a three-caste society in Cuba. I have never seen any objective evidence of such a thing, neither in restrictive laws nor in genetic discontinuity. See, for example, the "Discontinuity" section of Features of Today’s Endogamous Color Line. You may be conflating Cuba with the former B.W.I.
Last warning. Caribj's posting privilege will be suspended 24 hours from now unless he posts a source for the above implausible claim or unambiguously retracts the claim.
In addition, Caribj also disputed my claim that "In post-emancipation Jamaica, the beleaguered White population allied with the Coloured elite (the descendants of the famous Maroons) to keep down the free Blacks." My claim was backed up by the citation: Eric Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (New York: Harper & Row, 1988) page 215 and Frank W. Sweet, Legal History of the Color Line: The Rise and Triumph of the One-Drop Rule (Palm Coast FL: Backintyme, 2005) page 99. (Incidentally, see The Rules 3.1.5.) His rebuttal was the mere assertion that the "Mulatto elite" (Foner's terminology) of 1838 Jamaica did not in fact descend from the Maroons. Caribj is now required to back this up with a source within 24 hours or unambiguously retract the unlikely
Since Caribj's last suspension for rules violation was for 8 months, his next suspension will be for 16 months.
The first source references struggles of blacks AND mulattos in the early 20th century and a political party they established. This seems to indicate an ethnopolitical group identity that manifested itself in political struggle.'
Maroons in Jamaica are proud of their African heritage and the fact that they not only were NOT slave sof the Britih but they even went to ar with them. They are definitely NOT mulatto offspring. I can hear the clamor in Accompong at that accusation.
I suspect where the confusion might come from. In the 1865 riots in Morant Bay maroons were used to put down the ex slaves. That struggle started as a mulatto fight for empowerment and then became part of an overall fight. The brutal crushing of the revolt led to the then British governor being recalled. Mr Sweet I did do Jamaican histor as a student in JAMAICA. Nanny, a female Maroon warrior is one of their national heroes.
In the USA not so because we are broken into the black, hispanic boxes and also Cuban exiles are mainly white. Also many Caribbean migrants who left the Caribbean a while ago have missed the increasing ties that are now developing between the different language groupings within the Caribbean itself.
How long is a while ago in your opinion? I've met Anglo Caribbeans who migrated to the U.S. as recently as 10 years ago who don't see Spanish-speaking Caribbeans, including Cubans, as people with whom they have much in common. Further, not all Cubans who live in the U.S. are white. In fact, many in New York and New Jersey are not. IME, many Anglo Caribbeans are not likely to see these Cubans as fellow Caribbeans either. They are more likely to see Cubans as fellow Caribbeans than Dominicans and Puerto Ricans, but not much and they don't know much about Cuba. Again, this is based on my experience.
caribj wrote:
Many study in Cuba but also in PR but yet they consider PR alien, ironically despite that island, until recently, being a major shopping hub for many in the Eastern Carib. Not just about standing up to the USA because Chavez does so, and also offers goodies yet there is no identification with Venezuela.
But Venezuela is in South America not the Caribbean, so non-Hispanic Caribbeans aren't likely to see Venezuelans as Caribbean people or identify with the place as Caribbean, though culturally it is to some degree.
And how many non-Hispanic people actually study in Puerto Rico compared to Cuba? I'd venture a guess and assume that the overwhelming majority of those that study in Puerto Rico are from the U.S. Virgin Islands.
1. Guyana and Suriname are in South America yet are considered Caribbean peoples.
2. Way more Caribbean people travel to Puerto Rico than to Cuba. They go to shop and some for medical purposes (people from Antigua, St Kitts and the Virgin Islands). Cuban doctors are quite visible within most Caribbean countries. There is not the ignorance of the Spanish Caribbean that there once was. If I read you corectly you stated that West Indians will more readily identify with Cubans than with Dominicans or Puerto Ricans which is my point.
3. Not all Cubans in the USA are white but most are. Certainly the visible ones.
The first source references struggles of blacks AND mulattos in the early 20th century and a political party they established. This seems to indicate an ethnopolitical group identity that manifested itself in political struggle.'
"Blacks and mulattoes" are lumped together as a single entity throughout that book review. Nowhere in that book review is there any suggestion that Blacks and mulattoes were separate and distinct ethnopolitical self-identities. On the contrary, the text as well as the first-hand quotations in that book review explicitly depict a single, unified, Black-plus-mulatto identity based on partial African ancestry. You are running out of time.
caribj wrote:
Maroons in Jamaica are proud of their African heritage and the fact that they not only were NOT slave sof the Britih but they even went to war with them. They are definitely NOT mulatto offspring. I can hear the clamor in Accompong at that accusation.
You are now implying that I claimed that the maroons of the 17th and 18th centuries descended from the mulatto elite of the 1838. That is silly. No one would claim that people of the 17th and 18th century descend from people of the 19th century. My claim was that reverse--that the mulatto elite of 1838 descended from maroons (as well as from other ancestries, of course). The linked web-page says nothing about the 19th century. You are running out of time.
caribj wrote:
Guyana and Suriname are in South America yet are considered Caribbean peoples.
Source please, 24 hours. Precisely who considers them such? It is unwise to deliberately use passive voice to cloak an unsubstantiated personal opinion in scholarly garb.
caribj wrote:
Not all Cubans in the USA are white but most are. Certainly the visible ones.
Source please, 24 hours. Are you saying that they consider themselves White? Or are you saying that you personally consider them White? Or are you saying something else entirely? It is unwise to deliberately write with ambiguity to avoid being pinned down.
The first source references struggles of blacks AND mulattos in the early 20th century and a political party they established. This seems to indicate an ethnopolitical group identity that manifested itself in political struggle.'
"Blacks and mulattoes" are lumped together as a single entity throughout that book review. Nowhere in that book review is there any suggestion that Blacks and mulattoes were separate and distinct ethnopolitical self-identities. On the contrary, the text as well as the first-hand quotations in that book review explicitly depict a single, unified, Black-plus-mulatto identity based on partial African ancestry. You are running out of time.
caribj wrote:
Maroons in Jamaica are proud of their African heritage and the fact that they not only were NOT slave sof the Britih but they even went to war with them. They are definitely NOT mulatto offspring. I can hear the clamor in Accompong at that accusation.
You are now implying that I claimed that the maroons of the 17th and 18th centuries descended from the mulatto elite of the 1838. That is silly. No one would claim that people of the 17th and 18th century descend from people of the 19th century. My claim was that reverse--that the mulatto elite of 1838 descended from maroons (as well as from other ancestries, of course). The linked web-page says nothing about the 19th century. You are running out of time.
caribj wrote:
Guyana and Suriname are in South America yet are considered Caribbean peoples.
Source please, 24 hours. Precisely who considers them such? It is unwise to deliberately use passive voice to cloak an unsubstantiated personal opinion in scholarly garb.
caribj wrote:
Not all Cubans in the USA are white but most are. Certainly the visible ones.
Source please, 24 hours. Are you saying that they consider themselves White? Or are you saying that you personally consider them White? Or are you saying something else entirely? It is unwise to deliberately write with ambiguity to avoid being pinned down.
1. If blacks and mulattos are the same why not use one description, blacks, as in the USA. Are you saying that the one drop rule applies in Cuba? Or is there consideration of the fact that some are predominantly of African descent and others are only partially so? Now if I am wrong I retract that. I would then ask for your opinion as to why if mulattos and blacks are an undifferentiated group in Cuba with two separate descriptions are given.
Census which shows that most Cubans check the "white box".
3. Did you read the source that I gave you about Maroons. It doenst appear as if you did. Maroons fought the British. The colored elites of Jamaica were the decendants of miscegenation between white men and non white women. Maroons living in remote parts of Jamaica and until recently were VERY isolated from the rest of Jamaica, both geographically (poor roads) and psychologically (they considered themselves to be a semi autonomous group. Whatever Maroon "elite" which exists will only be considered elite within the confines of these Maroon communities. Certainly not in "uptown" Kingston, the head quarters of Jamaica's brown elites.
4. Guyana and Suriname are both in CARICOM, are quite isolated from the rest of South America, and are geographically, culturally, economically and every which way integrated into the nonHispanic Caribbean. They so consider themselves to be and are usually so considered by peoples from the English and Dutch Caribbean. As evidence of thois there are 3-4 flights per day from Guyana to TRinidad and none to Venezuela.
If blacks and mulattos are the same why not use one description, blacks, as in the USA.
I neither know nore care why the book reviewer repeatedly lumped the terms together. The point is that there was no suggestion in that review that they are two distinct ethnopolitical communities, as you claimed.
caribj wrote:
Did you read the source that I gave you about Maroons. It doenst appear as if you did.
There is nothing in that source about the 19th-century descendants of the maroons, the issue at hand.
caribj wrote:
Guyana and Suriname are both in CARICOM, are quite isolated from the rest of South America, and are geographically, culturally, economically and every which way integrated into the nonHispanic Caribbean.
Restating your claim is not providing a source.
caribj wrote:
Census which shows that most Cubans check the "white box".
So you were talking about how they self-identify on the U.S. census. IPUMS is an acceptable source. You might have said that, rather than writing, "Not all Cubans in the USA are white but most are. Certainly the visible ones," especially since the census does not record which Cuban-Americans are visible and which ones are invisible.
If blacks and mulattos are the same why not use one description, blacks, as in the USA.
I neither know nore care why the book reviewer repeatedly lumped the terms together. The point is that there was no suggestion in that review that they are two distinct ethnopolitical communities, as you claimed.
caribj wrote:
Did you read the source that I gave you about Maroons. It doenst appear as if you did.
There is nothing in that source about the 19th-century descendants of the maroons, the issue at hand.
caribj wrote:
Guyana and Suriname are both in CARICOM, are quite isolated from the rest of South America, and are geographically, culturally, economically and every which way integrated into the nonHispanic Caribbean.
Restating your claim is not providing a source.
caribj wrote:
Census which shows that most Cubans check the "white box".
So you were talking about how they self-identify on the U.S. census. IPUMS is an acceptable source. You might have said that, rather than writing, "Not all Cubans in the USA are white but most are. Certainly the visible ones," especially since the census does not record which Cuban-Americans are visible and which ones are invisible.
Shows how long Guyana has beemn linked to the rest of the Anglophone Caribbean. You will note that The head quarters of the Caricom Secretariat is in Guyana, clearly suggesting its strong Caribbean connection. Suriname has a common history to Guyana wth a similar demographic and similarly isolated from the rest of South America. It has eleccted to join Caricom to capitalize on its status as a caribbean nation located in South America.
2. The source on Maroons goes right up to the present and you will see at no point did they became part and parcl of Jamaica's colored elites. Given that the colored elites originated in part, from white men, the very people who the Maroons would have fought and then isolated themselves from in the Cockpit country and the Blue Mountains I am puzzled as to who and why some one (clearly NOT a Jamaican) would link Maroons who represent the most African aspect of Jamaica (in fact derive pride in this) to the colored elites who represent one of the least. The bulk of the Maroons in 2009 live exactly where they have lived since 1655.
The origins of the colored elites began in the 17th C. The coloreds had formed a power block by the late 18th C and variously struggled against or allied with the plantation elites. The origins of the colored elites of Jamaica are EXACTLy the same as Haiti's mulatto elites.
Nanny was a major Maroon leader and Gordon represented the colored elites of 19th century Jamaica.
3. I meant exactly as you said with respect to the racial identities of Cuban Americans. And the 85% who check the white box dominate the leadership and the visible portion of the Cubn exile community.
'
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