CNN's O'Brien embraces her own diversity

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CNN's O'Brien embraces her own diversity
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zsana
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Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 19:00 Post subject:

That cover is from the May 2001 issue of Working Mother.

Quote:

I am in a discussion on Wikipedia with someone who insists that it is a law of genetics that, "black mothers cannot have white-phenotype children."

That person is out of their mind.

I'm sure whoever that character is your corresponding with would REALLY be thrown for a loop if they saw Eartha Kitt's daughter Kitt.

Or Donna Summers Grandchildren by her first blonde blue eyed daughter Mimi.

Quote:

Wolftrap was fantastic.. audience was superlative....inspite of the rain....I was so honored that so many people came out on such a terrible night...and was totally estatic that my grandchildren and their cousin Mariah...Mimi, Rick and his sister Jen showed up to cheer me on...It was a thrill to have the kids on stage with me. They were surprisingly comfortable up..looks like there are a few more hams in the family to come....Thank God the rain stopped before the show and started again after it ended....

http://donnasummer.com/

gemini072
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 19:12 Post subject:

fwsweet wrote:

zsana wrote:

This is a small pic but I personally own this issue.

That is a great picture! It is comparable to that grainy Black-and-White photo of the three generations of Khoisan/European intermarriage that we posted in the admixture forum. Better yet, since it has already been published, it will not violate anyone's privacy to post it again (with attribution, of course). Do you have, or is there any way that you could get, a larger picture of the magazine cover?

That would be an more interesting picture if Soldad wore her hair natural

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 20:36 Post subject:

it only takes a few generations

gemini072
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 21:13 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

it only takes a few generations

A few generations before what?

G-Man
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Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 21:16 Post subject:

zsana wrote:

Experiencing ugly and open racial discrimination so early in ones life can't help but to solidify (for many) ones identity. In this case racial. Estella's treatment was no different than any other identifiably black Americans treatment in Balitmore at that time. She could not escape Americas conception of race.

I'm not sure what she went through in Cuba, but it probably could not prepare her for what must have encountered here.

A lot of Latinos who look as she does may have a hard way to go when they live in areas where there are very few of their co-ethnics of any color. Outside of the northeast, there is no Hispanic escape hatch for people with noticeable African ancestry, especially if they are (as O'Brian's mother appears to be) of predominant African ancestry.

Even if there is a Hispanic community outside of their nationality already in existence they may have a hard time convincing people they are really Latino and simply opt for a strictly black racial identity. Actress/singer Christina Milian who grew up in the DC Metro Area is a perfect example.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 22:59 Post subject:

gemini072 wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

it only takes a few generations

A few generations before what?

People look white. Wink

Phil345
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 03 Oct 2005
{Posts: 524 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 23:13 Post subject:

G-Man wrote:

O'Brian's mother may have had similar experiences. If she and the others I mentioned above grew up in New York City, Miami (?), Philadelphia, or any of the other metropolitan areas that have large numbers of Caribbean Hispanics, they probably would not see themselves as just black.

My comment was not about Soledad's mothers identity (its understandable that she would identify as black), but rather why she was so insistent that her bi-racial (nearly white looking) children were "black"; telling Soledad that she was a "lightskinned black woman".

Thats whats strange to me; its just not very "Cuban".

Phil345
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 03 Oct 2005
{Posts: 524 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 23:40 Post subject:

fwsweet wrote:

Right now, for instance, I am in a discussion on Wikipedia with someone who insists that that it is a law of genetics that, "black mothers cannot have white-phenotype children." I have oodles of pictures, but they are all of friends or relatives who would probably not like my using them in that way. I will be very grateful to get a scanned picture. In the meantime, could you please tell me the date of the issue? Who knows, maybe my local library can help.

....I find that ironic because I've always thought that children more often take after the father, and the bi-racial children of black women tend to look much "whiter" on average than the reverse.

In my experience I've seen alot of dark black women that have bi-racial kids that look like ethnic white children -or at least very "mixed" looking, and black men have bi-racial kids that look very black - often racially indistinguishable from the father (like Mario Van Peebles).

^^ Mario and Father

I might just be crazy though.

Phil345
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 03 Oct 2005
{Posts: 524 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 23:50 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

it only takes a few generations

I dont think phenotype directly corrolates with blood/ancestry fraction. It can take as much as 3 or 4 generations....I've seen countless examples of 1/4th black mixed people that look 50/50 (far from white)......especially with these new European bi-racial people.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2005 23:58 Post subject:

Phil345 wrote:

fwsweet wrote:

^^ Mario and Father

I might just be crazy though.

She has a Black Father

Her father is Black as well.

His father is Black.
It really has nothing to do with the father or mother being black , but how much admixture each parent already has. The child of any union that is of an African with low admixture and a European with low admixture is going to look visibly mixed. Not favoring either. it is only when one of the parents or both has a higher degree of admixture that the child can favor one side more than the other.

Phil345
Wizard
Wizard

Joined: 03 Oct 2005
{Posts: 524 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 00:08 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

The child of any union that is of an African with low admixture and a European with low admixture is going to look visibly mixed. Not favoring either.

Marios mother is a white German woman, and almost exactly resembles his father; he doesnt look to even be a shade lighter.

Quote:

it is only when one of the parents or both has a higher degree of admixture that the child can favor one side more than the other.

I dont know.....I might be crazy but I think I see the trend too often for it to just be coincidence.

...and wentworth's father is fairskinned, as was Jennifer Beals'.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 01:22 Post subject:

Phil345 wrote:

Marios mother is a white German woman, and almost exactly resembles his father; he doesnt look to even be a shade lighter.

So? I have seen two siblings come out where one was very light and the other dark.
There was a case of two sisters with a black parent in England one was seen as Black and the other as White.

zsana
Moderator

Joined: 05 Feb 2005
{Posts: 1032 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 02:21 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

Quote:

His father is Black.

I've read that Wentworth Miller's dad is partially white although he apparently identifies as black. This would make Wentworth 1/4 black. It's common sense that he would have such a white appearance. That's the majority of his make-up.

Then again - like Phil has observed as well - I've seen very dark black women with children that look like Mr. Miller.

Quote:

I have seen two siblings come out where one was very light and the other dark.

I've seen the same thing.

Phil345 wrote:

Quote:

Marios mother is a white German woman, and almost exactly resembles his father; he doesnt look to even be a shade lighter.

The resemblance is uncanny...

Check out Barry Bonds and his son Nikolai. Almost the splitting image of each other.

Salsassin
SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 11:47 Post subject:

Only his son is lighter. It is explained easily with a Punnit Square. Of course there are more variables than that. Look here: http://www.sciencecases.org/skin_color/skin_color2.asp And that one is still not fully accurate as they say 8 possible gamete combinations determine skin color.

G-Man
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2992 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 13:42 Post subject:

Phil345 wrote:

G-Man wrote:

As I wrote earlier, her mother's experiences in the U.S. may have something to do with this. Like many people who come from other countries who are beyond the cultural influences of a community of co-ethnics, her mother simply became more American culturally. As a result, her mother probably adopted American conceptions of blackness (I'm black, therefore you are black even if your father is white).

gemini072
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Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 13:51 Post subject:

G-Man wrote:

Phil345 wrote:

G-Man wrote:

True, and the white parents in many cases agree. Especially depending on the times. For all we know Soldads father may have saw himself as an 'other' ...what was he? Australian Irish?

gemini072
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 13:54 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

gemini072 wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

it only takes a few generations

A few generations before what?

People look white. Wink

Oh, with her hair relaxed she looks less Black, her hair is on the kinky side. I wonder if she is 'lightened' like a lot of ethnic women/people are on television (Oprah Included). Pictures of Soldad when she was young look far different than she looks now. she looked like a black-latina

gemini072
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 14:00 Post subject:

zsana wrote:

That cover is from the May 2001 issue of Working Mother.

Quote:

I am in a discussion on Wikipedia with someone who insists that it is a law of genetics that, "black mothers cannot have white-phenotype children."

That person is out of their mind.

I'm sure whoever that character is your corresponding with would REALLY be thrown for a loop if they saw Eartha Kitt's daughter Kitt.

Or Donna Summers Grandchildren by her first blonde blue eyed daughter Mimi.

Quote:

http://donnasummer.com/

That is funny.

Yet Eartha Kitt is (biracial) and Donna Summers family is Multigenerational mixed.

fwsweet
Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5381 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 14:14 Post subject:

Salsassin wrote:

It is explained easily with a Punnit Square.

Since this thread may be shifting from celebrity self-identity to the heredity of skin tone, it may better fit the admixture forum. But I cannot figure out how to split the thread. And I do not want to move the whole thing, since most of it is still about celebrity self-identity. Perhaps I can post something there that points here.

Punnit squares are a great way to teach the heredity of additive genes with co-dominant alleles (and skin tone is an excellent example of this). The Punnit square above assumes that only two additive genes encode skin tone. As Jaime points out, in fact there are at least three known genes and probably no more than four or five in all. Nevertheless, you can see a lot in the figure assuming just two genes. Here are three interesting points:

First, the figure shows the range of possiblities of offspring skin tone, given the parents' genes. The important thing is that the specific cell chosen for any given child is sheer random luck. Nature rolls the dice each time she chooses a Punnit square cell for a particular baby.

Second, the figure also shows the probabilities. In the example, both parents are of in-betweenish skin tone. The square shows that, for this situation, six chances out of 16 give a child wiith the same in-betweenish skin tone. There are four chances out of 16 of having a light-brown child and the same chances of having a dark-brown child. But there is one chance in 16 of a child coming out with Nordic skin tone and the same chance of having Bantu-like skin tone.

Third, the figure also shows why people say that first-generation biracial children always have a skin-tone between that of the parents. If the mother in the square had Nordic skin tone (all lower case in the figure) and the father had Bantu skin tone, every resultant square would be identical. That is, there would be zero chance of a child having any skin tone other than halfway between the parents.

As I said, the above figure assumes only two genes (a and b) with two alleles each (uppercase and lowercase). In reality, three genes have been identified, and there are probably one or two more, but the basic idea is valid and accurate.

Regarding Phil345's "crazy" idea that, for a given feature, the paternal gene might have more or less influence than the maternal gene: I would have agreed that he was crazy had he suggested this five years ago. But evidence has begun to emerge that some genes are suppressed depending on the source parent. The phenomenon is called "imprinted genes" and it has to do with the growth of the placenta in placental mammals. Nevertheless, it does not include skin tone, to anyone's knowledge. Personally, I suspect that Phil345's observation may be an illusion. Kids darken at puberty and, more importantly, girls are lighter than boys throughout their lives. Also, most U.S. interracial marriages are BM/WF. Consequently, girls with fair mothers look more like their mothers than their fathers and boys with dark fathers look more like their fathers than their mothers. But this is merely because boys are darker than girls and, in U.S. society, interracially married fathers are usually darker than interracially married mothers.

Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 14 Dec 2005 15:33; edited 5 times in total

gemini072
Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2942 }

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 14:20 Post subject:

Personally, I think that Phil345's observation is an illusion. Kids darken at puberty and, more importantly, girls are lighter than boys throughout their lives. Also, most interracial marriages are BM/WF. Consequently, girls with fair mothers look more like their mothers than their fathers and boys with dark fathers look more like their fathers than their mothers. But this is merely because boys are darker than girls and, in U.S. society, interracially married fathers are usually darker than interracially married mothers. Here is a photo of an interracial family with a very dark father and a nordic looking mother http://backintyme.com/ODR/viewtopic.php?t=393

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