The Study of Racialism

I changed my post above to you Melani

Melanie




You are chasing the wrong ball. What does this and the rest of your diatribe have to do with wondering whether you would risk your life under similarly dangerous circumstances? The point of the Mississippi reference was about your disingenuousness. You blithely criticized moderates for not speaking out in Iran and other places where homosexuals are executed but conveniently ignore that to do so publicly is to put your own security at risk.





In Islamic and other religious texts, homosexuality is a form of illicit sexual behavior that can be either adultery or fornication depending on who is engaging in the behavior. Some interpretations equate homosexuality to adultery because they want to give it the most severe punishment possible.



I’ve never denied any such thing. (I thought this forum had very strict rules against willfully distorting another person’s position). In fact, I’ve been saying there is a legal basis in Islam for penalizing illicit sexual behavior. What I have disputed is that most Muslims believe the death penalty should be applied to people for merely being gay. I would go a step further and say most Muslims don’t believe the death penalty should be applied to any illegal consensual sexual encounter. Of course the only way to know this is to conduct a survey of Muslims.

As for Islam being the only religion today that justifies the DP for same-sex intercourse, Dragon Horse addressed this pretty well. It would be more accurate to say Islam is the only religion being used by some Muslims TODAY to justify the death penalty for homosexuality. This is an important distinction because other religions could conceivable be used to do the same thing if Christian or Hindu fundamentalist had the power and desire to do it.

Honestly, you are the one trafficking in propaganda. Look at the website you posted. It doesn't even offer you background on the people behind it, even though it is obvious they are of the right-wing, Islamophobia type.


I doubt you will even take the time to educate yourself about Islam or Islamic law, but I will offer a link to a source for anyone interested in a serious and nuanced presentation of the issue. And it also goes to the heart of what Dragon Horse explained about the diversity of opinion on Islamic law.


Punishment In Islamic Law: A Critique Of The Hudud Bill Of Kelantan, Malaysia


I would skim the introduction and skip to page 13, Questions Over The Punishment of Zina. Zina is defined as 'unlawful intercourse'. I would read this section and the conclusions carefully.

Please. My cousin is Black and has "Other" on her birth certificate. Her younger sister is also Black, is the same color, and is designated as "Black" on her birth certificate. They have the same paretns. My best friend is Mexican American and is "White" on her birth certificate. Her younger brother is "Hispanic" on his. They have the same parents. The difference? Take your pick from any of these:

1. Someone legislated new racial categories between 1974 and 1981 in Louisiana and New Mexico, or at the federal level

2. Some dumb nurse made the call and the parents didn't bother to correct it

3. Race isn't a fixed biological construct but a social construct that changes

Anyone who has had an introductory course in human sexuality, or actually knows people who are not heterosexual and have discussed the issue, knows that human sexual orientation is also socially constructed. Yes, there are biological certainties in characteristics like skin color, nose shape, hormone levels and sex organs (most of the time). It is not accurate to say that sexual orientation is about "flip flopping" and racial identity is not given the centuries of evidence to the contrary. The choice to engage in sex or not is not about sexual orientation whatsoever. Sex drive is biological. Sexual choices are personal and largely regulated by society (or at least they give it the old college try).

You might want to take your own advice and stick to the topic at hand. The comparison you are trying to make between racial identity and sexual orientation just isn't valid as stated. And it has nothing to do with Islam.

at you trying to change the subject and place focus on ME, rather than answer my questions or give documentation on homosexuality/Islam.

DH: I agree with some of your statements and yes, I agree that not all sharia law is the same. However, I list citations to back up some of my statements you cannot deny is true. I also did list countries where such intolerance is the law. The site I also posted shows evidence of where 'honor killings in the name of Islam are going on in Western countries. And Koranic Law does condone the dealth penalty for 'illicit sexual activity' that is being caried out by gov'ts as well as indivduals (who are not charged with murder or are given light sentences).

HST:

Islamophobia? Homophobia? How is stating the obvious a form of fear? Call it what you want, but can you prove that this site is exaggerating or is propganda? They have citations from many foreign news services. They are not posting their opinions, they are citating FACTUAL accounts of the actions of Islamic followers and gov'ts. Can you deny any of their accounts from their sources? If not, I wouldn't be so quick to DISMISS them as 'right-wing' propaganada. But of course, the West is oppressing these misunderstood poor brown people.

Here are other sources who admit to their identites:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=27847
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
http://www.islam-watch.org/

And BTW, I have 'educated' myself about Islam. However, the more I read about it, the more I am disgusted by the way many of ther followers treat Women and BLACKS!!!!

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 685726.ece

Honor killing is not Islamic. Hindus and Christians from the Middle East/North Africa and South Asia also commit the honor killings...that is very cultural.

Any society who thinks that women represent the family honor and "face" will kill them if they embarass the family before the public...this happens in India among hindus a lot.

DH:

True is is largely cultural, but FGM is mostly prevalent in African & Islamic countries.

Female genital mutilation and honor killings of females have nothing to do with homosexuality. They also, as DH pointed out, exist outside of Islam. There is quite compelling evidence that inhabiting the planet as a female in virtually every society exposes said female to violence committed by a male. In the West, supposedly the bastion of freedom for women, one of the leading causes of death for women is still "death by husband/boyfriend." Is Melani an implicit supporter of this phenomenon because she does not speak out against it when someone brings up domestic violence in Bangladesh? If that is a ridiculous assertion, imagine how ridiculous the assertion that "liberals don't care about Muslim gays" sounds.

Furthermore, does Melani intend to keep cataloging the objectionable practices that occur in Islamic societies or finally articulate the link between them and Islamic views on homosexuality? Hopefully the latter or the thread will get derailed even further.

Surely worthy topics, but they are not the topics that should be discussed in this thread.

I have strayed from topic as much as DH/HST have formulated off-topic discussion.

Is Sagasend only going to point out Melani's digression from topic, or will she (as a Mod) pursue other posters and not be a hypocrite, despite her trying to off-track our civilized conversations and her opposition to Melani's socio-poltical views.

Hmmm....

Everyone gets off topic in an interesting thread, including me. In this case, yes I am singling Melani out, because its Melani's posts that keep veering off track. Melani seems compelled to name call other posters who do not share her views, and that is something I do not consider civilized in the least. What I oppose is her approach to posters that she deems "liberal" and the name-calling and immature innuendo that often follow.

I'm not trying to change the subject. I prefer you stick to the more important points I made:

1. Homosexuality and adultery are not mutually exclusive offenses in Muslim societies, just as homosexuality and fornication are not. Hence, my conclusion is valid; or at least it is not invalid based on the artificial distinction you're trying to make.

2. Islam (i.e. the Qur'an) does not prescribe or mention stoning/killing for homosexuality or any other sexual offense, unlike the Bible which calls for stoning the adulterers.

3. Just because a Muslim society follows a particular practice and claim that it is "Islamic" doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. You could use the same rationale to say that Hitler was not a true National Socialist, Stalin was not a true Communist, or Lincoln was not a true Republican. In practice Islam is whatever the mullahs say it is, not what you say it is. They have the power to enforce their interpretation. You do not.

Oh, so I get cha now. You may want to check out http://www.evilbible.com/. This was a website a Muslim sent to me on another site in a debate of Islam vs. Christianity

As for your above quote, let's review what the Qu'ran has to say, shall we....





http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.html

See also:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/koran.html

I disagree. Muslim (devoted or not) can and do steal, but that does not mean it is “Islamic” to steal. You’re conflating Muslim behavior and Islamic behavior. Sometimes a Muslim’s behavior will be “Islamic” (i.e. shari’a compliant), and at other times it may not.

And it is incorrect to say Islam is “whatever the mullahs say it is”. There is no Pope or priesthood in Islam. Islam is a discursive tradition; it derives meaning from an ongoing exchange among its adherents and the Qur’an, the traditions of the Prophet (SAS), and sacred history. While it is true that, historically, Doctors of the Islamic Law (fuqaha) enjoy much more credibility and deference, their fatwas are not binding unless you live in a Islamic State (and many would argue that Ottoman Empire at its height was the last Islamic State, despite what people think about modern day Saudi Arabia, Iran and the Taliban)

I'll tell you what. You read my link first and report back.

Here is another detailed, scholarly examination of punishment in Islam. There's no need to get information from some crackpot websites with anti-Islam agendas.


Let me repeat: Punishment by stoning is not in the Qur'an! Period. I challenge Melanie to produce one verse in the Qur'an that associates adultery and stoning. I don't want a list of websites purporting it is in the Quran. Nor do I want a list of countries who endorse this practice and call it "Islamic". I want the exact verse.


PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN ISLAM A Detailed Examination

Sorry. I was not clear. I was not suggesting that your interpretations of what Islam is and what its laws demand are illogical, irrational, in error or incorrect. I was merely trying to say that your interpretations are irrelevant. They are no more persuasive than an ant claiming that a descending shoesole should not crush it. You lack the power to enforce your interpretation. The fact of the matter is that those who currently wield power (the credible threat of death, mutilation, or imprisonment) have a harsher interpretation of Islam's demands that you do. You asked for a quotation from a verse. But The Door Was Closed to personal interpretation centuries ago. You cannot re-open the door on your own. You lack the power. Go acquire an army of men who will enforce your interpretations at gunpoint and you will suddenly become persuasive. Until then, no.

I do not want to ask your religion because it is irrelevant. But if you want to soften the way that Islam is actually practiced and to reify once again those forgotten verses that teach toleration of People of the Book, then you are in the wrong forum. You should be posting on Muslims sites and in the Arabic language.

I posted my proof. If such documentation is false, please point out 'doctrinal errors' . A scholarly discussion of Islam is not the same as to what is being practiced as Islam TODAY or what Sharia Law in Islamic/Quasi-Islamic States stipulate. The Qu'ran/Hadiths do advocate death for illicit sexual activity that is still punishable by death TODAY in Islamic states as we have previously discussed. Citing scholarly text promoting 'tolerance' does not excuse curent intolerant actions deemed/legally Islamic.

You can speak with former Muslims (not anti-Muslim) themselves:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/view ... 2546ef6dca

OFF-TOPIC
If you want a more authentic comparison of Christianity vs. Islam vs. (not our discussion), I suggest you study the character of each religion's founder - Jesus Christ vs. Mohammed (PBUH).

The Qur'an doesn't call for this treatment, but certainly in those societies that demand the death penalty for these sexual offenses (e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Northern Nigeria) they are justifying this by referring to Islamic law. Conceivably Islam is more than just the Qur'an to many of the world's Muslims. So, what source do these nations or regions site to justify these punishments? I was under the impression that this was an issue of Islamic law.



That's true enough as in the case of honor killings or according to some the veiling of women.

Good question. Its long and complicated and I'm hardly qualified to discuss in depth, which is the reason why I gave a couple of links to papers that do precisely that.

But to answer your question, the source is the ahadeeth/Prophetic traditions. The primary source of Islamic Law is the Qur'an, of course. But ahadeeth is another source, and the consensus of the ulema (scholars). The problem, according to the papers I linked to, is that the hadeeth on which these stoning fatwas are based are of questionable authority and authenticity. And given that, the practice should be abandoned since it also runs counter to the stated position and spirit of the Qur'an.

There are many other layers to this issue but I don't want to get into it except to refer interested parties to serious scholarship.