The Study of Racialism

These percentages have to be broken down. Are Blacks more or less ingrated in states or major cities within states? It's not just the concrete numbers of Blacks in a state that determines exogamy rates. Cohesion of a community is about more than numbers. Perhaps Blacks living in majority Black areas would rarely or never associate with a non-Black person and develop a relationship that would lead to marriage. Now if the same effect exists in integrated areas, then the culprit is likely ethnocentrism or White racism.

Sag said -



I agree with you, because most of the black women would say "heck no", for the reasons I allready mentioned. Auto-segregation is the cheif factor in the exogamy rate. And to prove that, or disprove it, we can do a simple test and look at the intermarriage rate among middle and upper-class blacks. Supposing I am correct, we ought to see the IR rate several times to low based on what it should be according to population ratios. Anyone up for the challenge of getting those statistics?

Sag said -



I doubt it. Blacks and Mexicans are interspersed in major inner cities such as Oakland and Los Angeles, and yet the intermarriage rate between them has got to be many times to low given the population ratios. Blacks are about equally antagonistic on the west coast towards whites and mexicans, with maybe a slight lean against mexicans. However, mexicans are also minorities which improves their position. Thus, I dont see a reason why this dynamic should be much different from that between whites and blacks. Again, its auto-segregation, not defacto segregation, I believe.

Sag said -



Yes, thats true because they are taught that its unneccessary and even traiterous to attempt such relationships. Again, auto-segregation.


In my opinion, the black power movement of the 1960s and 1970s set the entire african american community on a self-destructive coarse of self-segregationism and isolationism which still manifests itself today in the low intermarriage rate, despite dramatic, positive shifts in white attitudes towards blacks. Blacks are stuck in a time bubble with no way out.

TMK

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I should say up front that I come to this question with a highly localized interest, having been researching NC history for the last several years. Although an almost lifelong Virginian, I went to college in Louisiana and to graduate school in Alabama and lived briefly in Ohio and Michigan. None of this prepares me to understand the complexities of race in California, New England, etc.

Frank's phrase "steep initial learning curve" scared me off from trying to get into the database he cited upthread. But I will at least try to break out white-black intermarriage from other kinds in a few states, and see if that sheds any light. A.D. mentions tribalism as being stronger in states with larger black populations-- I wonder what other measures we might find used to evaluate social distance between the races.

It's the topic of social distance that has me very perplexed about the persistence of high endogamy rates in NC and VA. Sagascend mentions the lack of meaningful work relationships and friendships across the color line as a possible cause of endogamy. But in this part of the country I see tremendous decrease in social distance between the races. For example, schools are least segregated in Kentucky and most segregated in New York, California, Illinois, and Michigan.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051219/kozol

Virginia and North Carolina show up favorably in this list of
"Least segregated cities with at least 10% blacks"
Jacksonville, NC MSA29.4% 19.4% 9.9%32.1% 23.9% 8.2%31.8% 25.2% 6.6%YDover, DE MSA32.0% 20.2% 11.9%29.1% 22.5% 6.6%28.2% 22.1% 6.1%YLawton, OK MSA33.4% 21.5% 11.9%29.5% 21.5% 8.0%NCharlottesville, VA MSA27.0% 13.3% 13.7%27.2% 15.5% 11.6% 23.7% 15.9% 7.8%YFayetteville, NC MSA49.4% 34.2% 15.2%51.5% 39.6% 11.9% 54.4% 36.2% 18.2%YClarksville-Hopkinsville, TN-KY MSA 35.5% 19.8% 15.7%33.1% 27.3% 5.8%NKilleen-Temple, TX MSA38.9% 22.5% 16.4%35.8% 22.1% 13.7% 35.0% 20.7% 14.3%YDanville, VA MSA44.8% 27.8% 17.0%46.8% 35.2% 11.6% 43.7% 34.2% 9.4%YGreenville, NC MSA47.0% 29.5% 17.5%48.8% 41.2% 7.5%45.3% 40.2% 5.1%YMyrtle Beach, SC MSA31.7% 13.4% 18.3%32.8% 23.2% 9.5%31.7% 23.8% 7.9%Y

By contrast, the most segregated cities are:
Philadelphia, PA-NJ PMSA68.6%9.1% 59.5%61.7% 10.1% 51.5% 52.8%8.7% 44.1%YMiami, FL PMSA79.4% 19.8% 59.5%58.5% 22.8% 35.7% 51.8% 22.4% 29.4%YFlint, MI PMSA72.0%8.0% 64.1%70.7%7.6% 63.1%NCleveland-Lorain-Elyria, OH PMSA72.4%6.9% 65.4%68.9%7.4% 61.5%NMilwaukee-Waukesha, WI PMSA72.2%6.0% 66.2%63.3%7.7% 55.6%NNewark, NJ PMSA78.2%8.3% 69.9%66.7%7.6% 59.1% 64.5%6.8% 57.6%YChicago, IL PMSA78.0%7.2% 70.8%66.5%7.3% 59.2%NNew York, NY PMSA82.6% 10.5% 72.2%52.2% 11.8% 40.5% 47.5% 11.7% 35.9%YGary, IN PMSA80.3%5.7% 74.6%76.2%4.8% 71.4% 73.2%4.2% 68.9%YDetroit, MI PMSA81.4%6.2% 75.1%80.8%5.1% 75.7%

from
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:LMJ ... cd=4&gl=us

and in the Durham attitudinal survey I mentioned upthread, only about 9% of whites agreed with negative stereotypes about blacks, versus about 50% of Latinos agreeing with them. IMO this is not just about internal attitudes but also about external reality. Middle class whites have middle class black coworkers, neighbors, and friends, and their attitude reflects this. Latino immigrants see a very different side of African Americans in their lowest-end jobs and neighborhoods.

So the big question for me is how the upper South could be so progressive in race relations in most measures of social distance, and yet so stubbornly endogamous.

More later,

Paul

Many of these cities have large military-affiliated populations. Makes you wonder.

Kid - Blacks are not a monolith. Take a look at the increased stratification between upper/middle and lower middle/poor Blacks. Exogamy is much higher among Blacks as income and education rise (I need to look for the study that I provided for DragonHorse a few months ago when we discussed this very topic). There are real microlevel differences here to examine before concluding that "Blacks are stuck in a time bubble with no way out."

Sagascend wrote: Many of these cities have large military-affiliated populations. Makes you wonder.

Comment: true of the NC cases but not the VA ones. Danville and Charlottesville have no military presence, and Hampton Roads doesn't make the list (but comes close.)

wrt to the suggestion by Kid and Frank that endogamy correlates with AA population percentages, this quick inquiry suggests that hypothesis is worth pursuing. Seven states with more than 20% black population are MS (36.3), LA (32.5), SC (29.5), GA (28.7), MD (27.9), AL (26), and NC (21.6) whereas seven have fewer than 1%: MT (.3), ID (.4), VT, ME (.5), HA, SD (.6) and WY (. These parallel the rankings by endogamy rate fairly closely.

To me it seems multi-factorial. Perceived and real racism leads to distrust, which leads to strained or non-existent relationships. Class differences lead to the feeling of 'marrying down' and familial disapproval. (just to name a couple off the top of my head).




As someone who grew up on the west coast, I'd have to disagree on that one. Perhaps this is the case in LA, but inland southern CA is full of multiracial partnerships/marriages of all kinds. It's much easier to be sorta-middle-class the farther you get from LA, and with a more financially homogenous population the class issues become less.

Or maybe I just know more interracial couples than most people do.

Kileen, Lawton and Dover all have large military bases. Killeen (Ft. Hood) is or used to be the largest Army base in the country. No evidence to support without obtaining the intermarriage rates but I'd bet money that the military-affiliated population has significantly higher intermarriage rates than the "townie" population in these cities, and that is contributing to the results.

Mexicans or Mexican Americans are arguably more antagonistic toward blacks than blacks are toward them. Recent racially-motivated violence in California in which blacks were the victims confirms this. So there may be more opposition to miscegenation coming from the Mexican/Mexican American side than from the African American side.

Beautifully articulated!

_________________
E-ta

Kileen, Lawton and Dover all have large military bases. Killeen (Ft. Hood) is or used to be the largest Army base in the country. No evidence to support without obtaining the intermarriage rates but I'd bet money that the military-affiliated population has significantly higher intermarriage rates than the "townie" population in these cities, and that is contributing to the results.[/quote]

KPJ: Regardless of intermarriage, base housing would presumably be totally random in racial distribution. Off-base housing for military families would be nearly so. This would really skew the numbers wherever military presence is strong.

Danville's ranking makes me proud to live there, since we have no such moderating influences. My block, neighborhood and city are all close to 50/50 and all the neighbors are friendly.

Do you really think that its blacks who "reinforce the color line"? If a black person refuses to conform to what most blacks supposedly demand (racial solidarity) then what sanctions can that person suffer as a result? If that black person is accepted and operates well within the context of the white community they will therefore have access to all of the bounties that their socio-economic status will allow. And I really dont think that white people ask the permission of this supposed black majority to determine whether they will or will not accept a black person as a partner.

Truly I think that blacks perceive whites to be still, if not hostile to them, then not really interested in interacting with them. Blacks still percieve that they face more obstacles in gaining access to the bountries of the American Dream because of the continuation of institutional racism even as social racism continues to decline. In fact some argue that the decline in open hostility (social racism) to blacks has made more difficult attempts to prove that barriers still exist in gaining access to employment, job promotions, business opportunities, etc due to this institutional racsim. Thus there are still levels of ethnic insecurity which leads to demands by some for this ethnic solidarity that you deplore. I do know that for those who have figured ways to overcome these obstacles there is really nothing that those who demand ethnic solidarity can do.

So I submit that to the extent that there are forces that lead to this seperate and distinct color line, its the perceived continuation of white racism, and the discomfort that many whites have of associating with people who define themselves as black (especially if American born) due to feelings of white guilt or suspicions of black hatred. Willing to bet that the minute that blacks feel that whites are no longer against them we will be the most enthusiast supporters of full integration.

Leading this parade will be American blacks, not the foreign born who have their own identities and cultural and national loyalties that they wish to maintain. After all one can argue that African American are about the most AMERICAN group (aside from Native Americans) as most arrived more than 200 years ago, and have virtually no connection to, or interest in their supposed ancestral lands. How many are interested in Darfur as an example?

African Americans do not have a clearly defined sense as to who they are other than the notion of possessing some degree of obvious SSAfrican appearance. This may be why some rigorously enforce the ODR rules. Check to see the confusion that reigns when any one eask what does being black (as in American black) mean, and compare this with asking what being Jamaican, Guyanese or Nigerian means. Most notable that most educated American blacks speak correct American English so really the notion that black=ebonics is a nonstarter as most of these folks are proudly "black", whatever that means.

I submit that the minute that blacks feel they will be treated as AMERICANS rather than as BLACKS (and defined by the underperforming 35% ghetto under class as TMK, Melani and others do here daily) the question will become irrelevant. I will give an example of a woman who defines herself as African American, despite her creole background, and who has a kid who has had problems with the police even though he did nothing wrong and has many credible witnesses to prove this. How can you tell her to bond to whites given that she might be as much as 40% white when she percieves whites to be dangerously hostile to her? Obviously she will feel connected to the 100% black rather than to the 100% white given that she feels that its the "white" who threatens her existence and it is to "blacks" to whom she must turn to for support. So really of what relevance is it to her that maybe 40% of her ancestors were white? She feels that the success that she has had in realizing the American Dream (she is a senior executive with a nice home) and her success in passing some of these values on to her kids (they are in college) matters not to the white power structure who defines her sons the same as any ghetto brat despite clear differences.

Oh so America was wonderful integrated with only nominal racism and segregation before then? Have you ever thought that what we see today is a reaction towards what was occurring as recently as teh early 90s when we still had black homes being firebombed and blacks attacked. Why is it that fault of blacks when we see quite clearly that hostility against us still exists? Do you understand why a 50 year old who might have experienced severe racism in their life as recently as 1991 would skeptical and defensive? So why then do you blame them and not whites who firstly perpetrated and or condoned as a group (not all whites are racist) racism, but who have suffered little at the hands of blacks.

You know Bill Maher (sp?) on his show made a joke that blacks might be moving into the neighborhoods of the audience while they were at his show. Clearly he made a joke, but this wonderfully "liberal" audience who would declare not a racist bone in their bodies fell silent. Only when Bill Maher said joke that there were some embarrassed laughs. Not all who profess to be open to blacks are indeed so in reality, but the problem is, unlikely the more blatant racists, is they are very clever in hiding their bias, and can always indicate the one or two black "friends, or even spouses" as evidence of their lack of racism.

BTW dark Puerto Ricans are hardly exempt as we saw from the horrendous treatment that some apparently suffered from what appears to be gestapolike tactics at the recent Puerto Rican day parade.

Its obvious that you dont really care about examining this topic. You are defending blacks in your above posts. I dont want to hear about it. I doubt anybody else does either. We can continue your debate somewhere else.

TMK

Gman said -



Good point GMan.

TMK

So now you are the boards spoke person?

Sure, if you had read the board announcements section you would have seen my appointment, it was quite clearly bolded. Now, are you going to derail this thread too? I think we ought to get back on topic.

Well I guess that settles that, everyone has lost interest now that any ligitimate attempts to explain this phenomenon have been "debunked" by the resident peace police.


DvC

Please try to disagree with Caribj without being discourteous. Discourtesy turns people off.


I doubt it. Everyone with a strong opinion has already expressed it, so they do not need to repeat themselves. But give it some time and new people with actual data are likely to contribute.


You exaggerate. As it stands, much of what we have are unsubstantiated opinions, and no one person's unsubstantiated opinion is any more persuasive than anyone else's. Paul's intermarriage numbers by state are the best data presented so far, and I hope/expect that they will continue to be examined and interpreted.

_________________
Frank W. Sweet

Notice how it was paul and myself who provided the Data, not the peace police. That goes to show something is wrong right there.

I provided more than an unsubstantiated opinion, i provided a socio-political hypothesis which can be fully tested by researching the origins of the ideas intimated and checking for consistency with the hypothetical explanation. No one seems to give a *#@t. And also, pauls data was nice, but not better than mine, and it didnt isolate blacks from other races.

DvC