The Study of Racialism

No One! I suggest that you read TMK AKA devilchild and mulatto prince and note how people like sagascend have responded to them. TMK even thinks that it will be a good thing if we disappear. He has said this often enough.

If a Latino rejects blackness because he feels that his life will be better he will be called self hating better believe me. he is endorsing teh racist belief systems of others and these racist belief systems HUIRT PEOPLE. This is not victimhood. This is a reality. When a black executive gets rejected from a job because he doesnt "look" the part, not because he is lacking in skill set, then some one is buying into some negative stereoptype of his blackness.

People of mixed ancestry should accept ALL of what they are, not just some if they dont want a self hating label.

No kidding? If this were common, I would have to eat my words, but honestly it sounds unbelievable. What can anyone hope to gain by becoming a bigot towards a part of himself or herself?


In that case, you must exclude DevilChild, who has been nothing if not open and honest--excruciatingly disgustingly so. Whether he is "ashamed of his African heritage" is a good question. I think he just hates Black zealots. What the hell, let us ask him.

Hey, DevilChild, are you ashamed of your African heritage?

It's just plain human denial Frank. People do it all the time with all sorts of things.

And you're right, there is nothing at all to gain and everything to lose.

Frank writes:



Perhaps they are standing by their principle: authenticity. I like Skip Gates’ book, 12 Ways of Looking At a Black Man, because he makes the case that there is more than way to be authentically black. And the most important test of authenticity is to oneself. I personally applaud posters like Kalima, who acknowledge their african ancestry but self-identify as white because that is how they were raised and socialized. That to me is an authentic position to take. I don’t see it as “rejecting” blackness, necessarily. I see it as embracing reality.

On the other hand, while I may not react with “extreme hostility” toward individuals that reject blackness for purely utilitarian or selfish reasons, I do raise an eyebrow of curiosity, if not outright suspicion. If, for example, an Adam Clayton Powell look-alike had chosen to self-identify as white even though he was raised in a black cultural context, for the simple reason he wanted to escape the hardship that his fellow blackamericans would have to endure, I would regard that person as a sell-out. Though I should admit that I would have a lot more sympathy for someone who made this choice in the harshest areas during the Jim Crow era than an individual who made that decision in 2007. There isn’t nearly enough oppression of black folk to justify a opportunistic move like that today, IMO.

And I'm not even talking about people who reject blackness out some hidden animus, which frankly becomes difficult to disentangle from pure opportunism in some cases.

Thats not because I think you are inferior you liar. Its because I dont like you and it would be for your own benefit, as well as mine, if you hurried up and made a bunch of mulattos. I dont know why I worry, I bet your girlfriend is white anyway.

No sir! Not no more I aint. I was actually bothered by mymulattos comment, because I think africans have a rich and wonderful history, and I feel fine having genes from people who are negros. Afterall, if I didnt I would look bland like the other white folks and wouldnt have my special powers of sun-blockage. My problem was that I was made to feel ashamed of being associated with the outcast group, against my will. It doesnt matter what they look like or what "race" they are to me. I was similarly bothered by being categorized as a "jew" when I wasnt religious. Now I realize that I am who I am, and thats white through and through. So it doesnt matter how much African "blood" I have because even if I was coal black I would still be white, you see. No one can cast me out if I dont let them so I can fight back. Therefore I allways admit that I have african blood when asked, but I never say that I am black, ever. If people have a problem with african genes, or the abilities of africans, particularly negros, then they have a problem with me. Other than that, I dont really care.

P.S., I dont even have to say I am mulatto I can lie and say I am puerto rican and fool everyone I ever meet, especially latinos. I am sacrificing myself for the sake of integrity and for the benefit of mulattos, who should not have to lie!

Now eat that Caribj.

Devil

Gee golly gosh HST, what about me and prince? I guess we are not white enough for you? WHat are you, a Jew? Irish? Italian? I bet I can find a racial insult that will make you think twice about this kind of hypocracy.

Ps......[ whispering ]....i was raised, white too.

Well, I guess this topic is closed then. I have tried to understand why there is such hostility towards those who reject Blackness opportunistically (motivated by wanting to avoid prejudice--a sensible choice, I should think). But the only honest advocates of such hostility (Caribj and HST) simply reiterate that they consider such rejecters to be "self-hating" or "sell-outs." Personally, I find it easier to grasp the opposite argument: that anyone who lives in the 'States and voluntarily chooses to self-identitfy as Black when she/she does not have to is a fool. The "self-hating sell-out" argument has all the intellect of a reptile. It makes no sense to me, but I guess that's the way it is.

In any event, the discussion has made me alert to members, like Dragon Horse, who hypocritically proclaim that everyone has the right to self-identify as he or she chooses, but in fact consider anyone who rejects Blackness opportunistically to be a "self-hating sell-out."

I am glad that Caribj and HST are not hypocrites (as Dragon Horse was). They openly deny others the right to choose (or to refrain from choosing) an ethnic self-identity, no questions asked. I for one shall consider any future statements about freedom and human rights made by Caribj and HST in the light of this new knowledge.

Nothing because merely calling yourself nonblack doesnt mean that one isnt perceived as black. I used to have some Brazilian friends who called me racist because I refused to consider myself a mulatto because of some vague and not readily visible European ancestry. Interesting that as soon as tehy became angry with me I became black. Similar experiences with Dominicans.

Unless one portrays a healthy image of what being black is then one cannot expect respect from nonblacks whether one is predominantly black, or part black, but visibly so. Anger them and that part of one that is black suddenly becomes the defining characteristic where tehy are concerned.

I will leave Devil Child alone. What may surprise him is that I am not as much of an enemy as he thinks. He will not find one post from me where I demand that he call himself black. I just think that he can celebrate what he is without denigarting and stereotyping other groups.

With my West Indian notion of race its quite probable that I also might call him mixed and may find any claim of his to be wholly black to be interesting. I can well remember being screamed at by a light skinned black American friend (who I suspected was actually biracial) who, after teasing some one who was slightly lighter than him, got livid when I similarly teased him by calling him a mulatto, the term that he used on the other person. I just thought that by ignoring certain facts of his ancestry was a bit odd. I do think that its possible for one to acknowledge one's mixed heritage but then say that you just feel more comfortable with part of it, provided that you dont denigrate the other part.

Frank can you find any post where I deny TMK/DevilChild to be a mulatto? What I do not agree with is doing so, not because that is the reality of one's heritage, but because one is ashamed of part of that heritage. Shame and it really doesnt do justice to the notion that if one wants to identify with several parts of one's heritage one must have a right to do so. It actually does play into the notion that some black nationalists have that those who claim a multi-racial heritage do so only to escape the supposed stigma of being black.

You will note that I have nothing to say to Powell. She is a mixed person who doesnt feel black because she didnt grow up around them, or at least this is waht I get from her. Who am I to demand that she calls herself black.

Frank if I were to call myself mixed by virtue of being 20-30% nonAfrican do you think that people who would otherwise call me black would change their minds and treat me better? I do recall when Michael Jackson changes his looks, allegedly out of shame of his blackness, many whites laughed at him. Not just blacks.

I do feel that it will be more productive of me to educate nonblacks that we are not a monolithic people and that the negative images that unfortunately some of us are trapped in is not a correct portrayal of all of us. Then maybe one wouldnt have to worry about the supposed stigma of blackness. Maybe people will look at some one who happens to be black in terms of his or her personal qualities and not just how they look.

devil you are entitled to your opinions.

False assumption. He claims to be White, not Mulatto.


Not true. He has eloquently expressed pride in his African ancestry. He chooses to self-identify as White because being White is less of a hassle.


I understand perfectly. You accept a mixed person who chooses to be White because they were raised that way. But you reject and consider self-hating a mixed person who chooses to be White because it is less of a hassle to be White. You have made your denial of freedom of choice in the second case very clear. As I said, I am glad that you are not hypocritical about it, the way Dragon Horse was. But future statements by you about freedom of choice must be seen in the light of your denying freedom of choice to others.


I have no opinion on how effective such a strategy would be. But, unlike you, I would defend your right to make the choice.

I don't equate identifying white as being ashamed of African heritage. I accept that I have African heritage and am grateful for it, yet identify white, for reasons I've described many times on this forum already.

(eta: sorry, misread what you were saying. It looked like you thought you could do one or the other on first glance.)

Well I havent said a thing about his claim to be white either. My comments are tied to his motives for this. Motives as indicated by saying that blacks are the reject bin of America and that we ought to disappear. Cant imagine any black identified person with a healthy self esteem who wouldnt be irritated by such comments which clearly are aimed at them. Especially when more than a few racists express those very sentiments. Seriously why would I endorse such attitudes which clearly do not serve my interests well.



Freedom begins when it impedes the freedom of others. By implying that being black is bad (and it must be if its this horrible thing that one must escape from) one endorses those who use racist notions for advancing their arguments. Personally CONFRONTING racism is healthier than endorsing it. I am glad that there were those who in the past confronted racism in the past when it was clearly wors ethan it is today, as it surely has made my life much easier than if they just took the easy way out.

Well, gosh, thanks. I was beginning to feel like nobody liked me here.

Frank



A couple of quick points. First, I hope you don’t close discussion simply because understanding hasn’t been reached. You may never understand it on an intellectual level because this isn’t simply an intellectual exercise or problem. Emotions are bound up inextricably with identity, politics, and culture. And IMO, emotions will have to guide understanding before or concurrent with intellect. A person’s decision to ‘opt out’ of his/her ethno-racial identity isn’t driven primarily by intellectual musings or cost-benefit calculations. So we shouldn’t expect reactions to these choices to be primarily intellectual either.

Secondly, hostility is a strong word. I am not advocating hostility. I am not advocating anything really. I just expressed my personal feelings about people who would run when the tough gets going. Its not like these people are forced into exile or something, and the only escape from persecution is to reject blackness. While I make no apologies for describing this choice as sell-out behavior, I am not ‘hostile’ to it. (Unless of course an individual rejects blackness then expects blacks to come to his or her aid when a lynch mob is fast on his heels). A more accurate description is to say I dislike sell-outs. But then again, I dislike Krispy Creme donuts.




I don’t accept your premise that to be black in America is among the worst things imaginable. Can you understand why this might be insulting to many blackamericans?

You are most welcome!

I wonder whether Oprah, a proud and highly successful black woman much loved by her mainly white audience (in fact richer than any woman who didnt inherit her wealth) would agree that life automatically gets better if one says that they arent black.