The Study of Racialism

You missed my point - let me restate it:

Nationalism is feature of the human experience since the beginning of time and is found all throughout history in a variety of forms and degrees. The example I presented about Germans was just one of many. Furthermore, the example isn't important - it is the concept of nationalism that is, however it's manifestation.

It goes without saying that there will be many causes and degrees of nationalism and therefore not all of them will be the same.

Therefore, I stand behind my assertion that nationalism is a very relevant if not primary component of the cause of the indifference Dominicans have towards Haitians. Furthermore, I see the so called "racial" markers such as distinguishing color and hair as natural byproducts of nationalism.

You've actually asserted different things throughout your posts, which led me to the original question. You've said that race is not significant in the DR, that the racial classification system is based on appearance, and that either colorism, classism and now nationalism best explains identity expression in the DR.

Nationalism is a recent human phenomenon, it has really not been found throughout human history. If you mean that xenophobia or cultural chauvanism has always existed, I'd likely agree with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

It is nonsensical to me that the Dominican proclivity towards anti-SSA colorism, which they share with virtually every new world society, would be a result of a particular nationalistic campaign rather than of, say colonization by Europeans who placed their phenotypes at the top of the hierarchy and those of their slaves at the bottom, with the blends in the middle in most societies. What Dominicans think about "bad" African hair sounds pretty much like what Puerto Ricans or Brazilians and even African Americans think about it. So on and so forth. I am not speaking in absolutes - of course not all people in any society hold these views.

Of course nationalism is relevant, as it is to all modern societies since it is the primary organizing principle (for geography) these days, but I'd question the notion that Dominican nationalism can explain even 50% of why Dominicans self-identify as they do.

Sagascend explained my understanding quite well in her last post. It all depends on the individual. However, the DR shares many perceptions with other groups that arose from somewhat similar circumstances. It's best to look at all of those experiences together to ensure that too much emphasis is not being placed on nationalism, to the exclusion of other issues.

Ironically, I would say far and away that most references I have read (like in the news) on this topic attribute the "dynamic" to classic "white" vs black" racism as opposed to nationalism. Nationalism rather than being considered as a cause is all to readily excluded as an influence because I believe it does not fit the model so many Westerners are accustomed to and comfortable with.

Well, I would agree with you overall as far as the bolded. But who exactly are Westerners?

I'm also interested to know, especially since the Dominican Republic, like other countries in the region, are Western in culture, location and character.

I don't think you have understand my posts if this is your assumption - please read again. It might be helpful to try to get away from the whole "identity expression" idea as a way of understanding Dominicans and how they see themselves. I do honestly believe too after many conversations with Westerners who have never lived here nor spoken the language that this is a very difficult concept for most to grasp.



Whether one chooses to believe the theory that nationalism is a recent phenomenon is superfluous to the topic at hand. It is clear this is the main component of the dynamic between Haitians and Dominicans. Like I stated before, most with a Western perspective will have difficulty understanding this phenomenon, bottom line.

However, you are certainly welcome to your opinion and mine, but to my credit, I actually have the benefit of witnessing classic white vs black racism in the southern US and the "so-called" racism here in the DR first hand for almost four years and they are leagues apart in terms of character and manifestations.

NA or Europeans.

So, as a point of disclosure, I have spent a fair amount of time studying intercultural communication and identity (as expressed through ethnicity/race). You can't understand how someone perceives themselves, understand identity, without examining how that identity is expressed. What you want to 'get away from' is in fact central to every assertion you've made in this thread, whether you've focused on racial, ethnic, national or class identity. The fact is that we are now discussing Dominicans and their identity expression. Please feel free to start another thread for other topics you'd like to discuss. Please also feel free to have this discussion using another lens other than identity. I'm not saying it is the only way to understand a multifaceted phenomenon.



You live among Westerners in the Dominican Republic. You are a Westerner by your own definition. Perhaps what people you have interacted with cannot grasp is why you'd speak about yourself and your adopted country as non-Western.

Also, this is all anecdotal unless you have some data. I respect the fact that you live in the DR and now have familial ties and a knowledge of the culture and language, but to assume that your experience negates those of Dominicans who were born and raised in their country because they may express their identity differently than what you perceive as the Dominican way doesn't sit well with me. I would never say that your opinion about US American culture and conceptions of racial identity is somehow questionnable because you now live in another country.



Actually, it required clarification simply because of your own statements and examples using nationalism. And though the dynamic between Haiti and the DR is a big influence in both countries, you have made multiple and somewhat contradictory statements about what factors influence Dominican self-identity.

It's also unclear that you have a "non-Western" perspective. Can you help me understand what non-European, non-North American perspective can be gleaned from a USAmerican who lives in a country that was colonized by the Spanish, occupied by the French and influenced by US Americans? Believe me, I get that African and Native influences and the subjugation of those peoples should be considered in the perspective, but most New World descendants are Westerners by and large.



Certainly, but I also think you are the only one comparing and contrasting racism in the two cultures. My interest is this discussion is Dominican identity expression not USAmerican racial classification.

sagascend

With all due respect, your reasoning, while prolific and constant, doesn't convince nor sway my personal opinion and something I witness on a daily basis.

Furthermore, my opinion is straightforward and without agenda, other that I believe the truth of the matter may be told. You may be able to throw some big terms in the mix to muddy the issue for yourself and others but it is clear for me.

I will further state that it is a true shame that the Dominican Republic is so so readily classified as another example of "whites" ability to hoodwink a whole society into thinking that they are white and to hate everything black. No doubt this has been part of the process, but to the level most Westerners understand, not even in the same ballpark, sorry.

The end effect of the oh so easy and convenient pigeon-holing of the Dominican dynamic is to completely disregard the positive realities that the Dominican Republic is today with regards to race relations. I doubt there will be few other places on this God's green earth with so much racial integration.

Then again I'm starting to realize that "racial integration" is not an ideology that neither the AA nor white community are really comfortable with. That begs to ask the question, where to we go from here? From what I've seen from the agendas on the both sides - nowhere real fast.

I've noticed that you have a tendency to insert all sorts of blanket assumptions in your responses to one person. I would advise you to focus on what various posters actually say and stay away from extrapolating all kinds of half-basked, off-topic and irrelevant conclusions that stem from your personal interactions in the past. You're headed down a path to warning and suspension, for no good reason IMO.

These allusions you're making, to "Westerners," to "Americans" to "African Americans" the "white community" and "hoodwink[ed] to hate" are out of line. Not only are you going off topic but you are reading entirely too much into what is actually being stated.

Lastly, many many people read and lurk on the board. The point is not for posters to convince one another, and in fact our rules require that such discussions end at the point it appears that the participants are getting nowhere precisely because the larger goal is to learn and/or teach, not debate until someone "caves in." It's often the contentious discussions that produce the most information-rich conversations, as long as participants agree to follow the rules while doing so.

You are welcome to your perspective on the Dominican Republic and identity expression, but you should advance it using sound logic, verifiable facts and evidence when asked.

Let me start of by saying I am 100% Dominican, born there and raised here in the USA. I also went back for one year to live and study. I live in the NYC/Northern NJ area which has the nations largest concentration of Dominicans.

Chips' posts closely mirror my personal experience and views.
Majority of Dominicans do not self-identify as 'white' in the DR, much less here in the USA since white is also a racial-ethnic label that is seperate from the Latino umbrella label under which Dominicans fall.
The phenotype descriptors used in DR are very similar to the rest of the Spanish Caribbean and I would also add Brazil. The often misunderstood 'indio' descriptor does not mean indigena (Native Amerindian). The way in which it is used is quite similar to Brazils' 'Pardo' in which people who are not clearly white or black but of mixed phenotype (mulattos/zambos/mestizos/tri-racials, etc.)
There was no OneDroppism (traditional or reverse) in DR.

Johnny Ventura is a very famous and well known Merengue artist. When Dominicans see Johnny Ventura they see a black man, when Johnny Ventura see's himself he also sees a black man. He calls himself 'El Caballo Negro' (the black horse). The same for dictator Ulises Heareaux and national war hero Gregorio Luperon.

Charytin Goyco is a famous TV host. When Dominicans see her they see a white lady.

I used these well known people as examples to set a point of reference, There are no people who look similar to stereotypical East Indians calling themselves white or people like Alex Rodriguez who go around self-identifying as white either.

Indio is marked on my Dominican cedula, I have never been mistaken for black or white in the USA (by African Americans or whites) or in DR. The same goes for Puerto Rico to which I've been to many times.

The one thing that may set DR apart is the place Haitians occupy. Many make the mistake of having Haitians represent everything 'black' to Dominicans as if black was a single monolithic group. Anti-Haitianismo was first born out of nationalistic ideology, a very common occurence with many countries that share borders and have had tumultous past. A racialist element is further added when the two countries have different cultures/languages and different ethnic makeup.
Plenty of Haitian mulattos were in Boyers government when DR was under Haitian occupation. A Dominican does not look upon a Haitian mulatto as a French speaking brother, a black Dominican does not look upon a black Haitian as a French speaking brother, etc.
The other non-Haitian black immigrants (West Indian Cocolos, African Americans) did not carry the Haitian stigman. They came to be viewed as quite differently, today there is a certain 'coolness' factor applied to them.

It is apparent that you have some emotional attachment to the issue, just as I do, so I see we really won't get anywhere with the topic.

All I will state is that I live here in the DR and I have compared that with living to the US and that my point of view is valid, no matter how you decide to overanalyze it. I furthermore question how people many people can apparently understand this dynamic without actually ever living here and seeing it for themselves. What a real shame in my opinion.

By the way, with reference to me posting:

off-topic and irrelevant conclusions

I wasn't the one who split this thread off of my "When will One Dropping be a thing of the past in the US?" thread. What started out as an example of stark contrast to "one dropping" found in the US has been a challenge of the racial integration found in the DR. Thus it is only natural that the topic of the thread would shift somewhat as well. I have seen other threads topics jump all over the place with little fanfare so I don't see why this one should be singled out nor why I should be put on notice for supposedly "straying" from the topic.

sincerely

Divana,
I think there maybe some confusion as to what constitutes the 'Dominican system'. I guess a somewhat fair analogy would be similar to the way Eskimos have many words for 'snow', so do Dominicans for phenotype descriptors. But these are not to be misunderstood as 'racial' categories.

Example A: Myself
If a Dominican would to describe me he would say I am 'indio' or 'indio claro' (depending if they catch me in summer or winter) with pelo crespo.
Indio refers to my color and phenotype which is neither black or white.
Pelo crespo refers to my hair which is not wholly of Eurodescent or Afrodescent (think hair similar to Alex Rodriguez).

They can use various combinations of blanco, negro, prieto, moreno, jabao, indio, trigueno, etc.
This does not mean there are whole segments of society who are indio claros, morenos, etc.
The nickname chino is used for anyone with Oriental type eyes regardless if he's black or white. I'm sure they would describe Tiger Woods to a 't'.
Color does not alway='race' or background.
Moreno is used for anyone from black to brown and even dark haired/eyed tannish whites. Moreno does not always mean black.

Here's my breakdown based on real life experience on how Dominicans self-identify in the USA from the broadest label down:

The Latino/Hispanic ethnic label
-Nationality
If asked by another Dominican they'll then mention city/region.
They would not be calling themselves Afro-Dominican, white-Dominican, Indio-Dominican, etc.
If asked what do they physcally look like is when you would get the use of descriptors and/or 'racial' terms.

Some scholars think it probably began earlier than that, probably as early as the Treaty of Ryswick with the creation of Saint Domingue on the West and Santo Domingo on the East. The French colony was viewed with mistrust and contempt by the Easterners regardless of ethnic background.
It was further aggitated with incursions by Toussaint and Dessalines, the occupation and subsequent invasions further added to fuel the anti-Haitianismo spouted by Trujillo.
But I really do think that the average Dominican is pretty laid back in regards to their relationship with Haitians. Trujillos ideology are given way to much credit and power.

Ok and why are you assuming that people here don't know about nationalism? Or aren't accustomed to and comfortable with nationalism?

This inner dynamic doesn't much different from a number of other Caribbean islands, where the are color descriptions. Color doesn't always equal race or background for us either. But would you say that blanco, negro y mulato are not in use in the DR? Also, how prevalent would you say that ethnic descriptions are?

Further, I find that some Dominicans have difficulty understanding that dynamic outside of their nation, and apply more "racial/color" understandings to others. So it seems to me from that they ultimately, it's something that the society falls back on to some extent. I still don't prefer U.S. or D.R. system.

True. Most non-black American or white-American ethnic groups in the U.S. hardly ever use any Afro-, white-, or other terms. It's just country of origin and depending on who they are talking to, the conversation proceeds.

Agreed, DR's color/race/phenotype descriptors don't differ too much from the rest of the Caribbean, and to be more precise it is very similar to the rest of the Spanish Caribbean (Cuba, PR). Blanco and Negro are used, either in a 'racial' sense or as a descriptor. Mulatto is known but I've come across that term more in Dominican literature than in real life. In a nation of mostly mixed people, mulattos fall under the broad indio category.

As far as applying their 'racial/color' understanding to others, perhaps you can give me an example?
Here's my example based on real life experience. Say a Dominican sees artist Alicia Keys. She's obviously of black/white ancestry which would make her fall under the indio category but due to her American nationality Dominicans would call her an African American (morena, negra, AfroAmericana). They wouldn't call her india or mulatta. I've seen this fluidity on many occasions.
I've seen this also with Dominicans travelling to other islands in the Caribbean, when I ask for them to tell me about the people they don't just say 'blacks'.