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 Post subject: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Thu 11 Aug 2005 23:14 
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Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/07/30/gender_crashers/print.html

Quote:

I want you to want me
I laughed, I cried -- then I wondered: Why won't the "Wedding Crashers" crash any sister's wedding?


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Debra Dickerson
Salon.com
7/30/05



July 30, 2005 | I was first in line for "Wedding Crashers" on opening night, hoping it would be as funny and sexy as it looked. It was. I laughed out loud and had enough naughty thoughts about surfer-dude Owen Wilson to make me squirm a tad in my seat. I'm dying to know what the deal is with that adorable crook-nose and, furthermore, hereby volunteer to faithfully brush those shaggy strands out of his eyes. When Vince Vaughn vulgarly announced himself a "cocksman" and bragged that he was 6-foot-5 -- I'd had no idea! -- there may even have been a slight arching of the back. The closest I've ever come to an interest in math is the few minutes I spent trying to triangulate how tall Owen must be when the two stood side by side. In particular, the highlight of the movie was the early and prolonged scenes of them partying down at a Benneton ad's confection of weddings set to "Shout" -- Hindu, Chinese, Jewish, Irish -- that will be wearing out the replay button on America's remotes when the DVD comes out.

But it was the montage of naked women cascading jubilantly into the rogues' beds, poufy bridesmaid dresses crumpled somewhere out of frame, that did the most for me. The sight of them -- alone, unarmed and unafraid, as one military motto goes -- was as deliciously sexy and just as much fun as the shenanigans at the weddings where Wilson and Vaughn wooed their willing prey. It was fitting, not to mention gutsy in these WWJD days, that this part continued to be set unapologetically to "Shout" and not some gauzy, romantic cop-out guck so we could forgive these sluts for schtupping a man they'd just met. "Crashers," at least in the beginning, wasn't about love. It was about making multi-orgasmic lemonade on love's fringes until it was your turn to star in a wedding.

That montage was a celebration of sex, carnality and the feminine ideal. It was a testament to the lion-tamer aspect of being a straight chick, that heady "bring a strong man to his knees" adrenaline rush that is one of the keys to understanding your power as a woman. At the same time it's a testament to the pleasures of surrender, that sweet, sweet payoff that can only come after a free-fall shuddering toward a landing site that has been promised but not verified, you tramp. That happy Vesuvius of perky breasts, firm thighs and concave tummies was a tribute to youth, to the search for adventure and to our enduring belief in romantic serendipity. It was a bungee jump with an elastic cord you're pretty sure is functional, but hey, if it's not, your wounds will heal. It was about optimism and thrill-seeking and I was proud of those sluts. They leapt before they looked and I don't want to know anyone who never has.

But, somehow, by the end of the parade of weddings crashed and women laid, I realized I was sad. It took me an entire martini to figure out why: The crashers seduced their way through every culture and every ethnicity but mine. Why don't Owen and Vince want to seduce me, too? Why don't they want to dance with my nana at a wedding?

It's confusing to me that in a nation, a world, where black culture so permeates, if not dominates, the entertainment industry that a major Hollywood release would throw up its hands and declare Negro culture impenetrable. There isn't a white boy in America who doesn't do a jerky cabbage patch when he's happy and pronounce himself "dissed" when angry, yet Hollywood can't break the code on LaQuisha and Raheem jumping the broom? Odd that "Shout," performed by black musicians, was chosen as the raucous anthem for an ode to collapsing racial and ethnic borders but excludes blacks, the lubricant by which this celebration of humanity, this transcendence of race, proceeds. More troubling, could it be that achieving racial harmony results from non-blacks banding together to exclude blacks? (If this seems extreme, check out David Roediger's excellent new work, "Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants Became White." He discusses the extent to which joining in pogroms against blacks helped the despised Southern and Eastern European immigrants "prove" their whiteness and become Americanized.) We can provide the soundtrack, we can entertain, but we cannot participate; where have we heard that before? Whites can dance the hora, they can play mah-jongg with Chinese grannies, they can go Bollywood with the Hindus, but they can't figure out the electric slide? (That's our wedding staple, by the way. I have yet to hear "Shout" at a black wedding.) I reject most conspiracy theories, really I do, but I suspect that black culture was, however subconsciously, deemed unworthy.

Please don't misunderstand. I hate those Negroes who would bean count for black faces in Antarctica so they can get airtime whining about "the lack of diversity" blah blah. Start a school! Take in some foster kids! Run for office! If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, cheap race-mongering is the last refuge of an idiot. "Niggardly," indeed. Anytime you want someone with a ghetto pass to tell them to shut up for you, give a sister a call. I'm talking about something else, something more than "gotcha, white folks," something y'all won't be able to dismiss as easily as all that. I'm talking about something that grieves black women, that breaks our hearts so much I have never had a conversation with another black woman about it. Or, at least not one that dared venture further than "I bet he's got a white girl" as a gorgeous brother passed by. Our hearts are broken because we are unloved. More than that: Black women are unlovable, or so the world tells us every day. Most often, it's a sucker punch.

Minding my own business recently, I was reading my friend's excellent nonfiction book, "Random Family: Love, Sex and Trouble in the Bronx," which chronicles the intersected lives of a hardscrabble constellation of Latinas. In lamenting the loss of a lover to a rival, one woman was dumbfounded that anyone would prefer a woman "with hair like a black girl's" to her. I am ugly by definition. Usually, though, our degendering and masculinization is pretty easy to see coming. I watch the promos for my hero Chris Rock's new series about his Bed-Stuy adolescence and cringe when his "mother" traumatizes her son with bellowed, emasculating, dehumanizing threats like: "Boy, I will SLAP yo' name out the phone book, then call Ma Bell and tell her I did it." Hilarious, no? He looks about 10 as she terrorizes him with psychotic threats that would make Uday and Qusay proud. Who would want to bed that shrieking harridan? Who'd want to live next door to or hire such a bitch? Bets are off on how far into the series it will be before this black harpy (how redundant) is swiveling her neck and reducing a good man to shreds with her razor tongue. I have a 4-year-old son and an almost 2-year-old daughter who would go into cardiac arrest if I spoke to them that way, even in jest. Forgive me, Chris, but your "mother" proves that Zora Neale Hurston nailed it when she noted that black women are "the mules of the world."

She was speaking of how hard most of our lives were in the 1920s and 1930s, she was talking about the patriarchy and misogyny within the black community that keeps so many of us mute chambermaids who are regularly beaten, but perhaps most important, she was talking about what that hardness did to us, or rather, to others in dealing with us. Our ability to survive atrocity, to make something from nothing, to bounce back day after day -- somehow, this makes the world see us as rhino-skinned, never soft. Quadruple-lunged, never asthmatic. Incapable of giggling, blushing or shutting the hell up. Sisters are essentialized as indefatigable, never in need of a door held open, a chair pulled out. A "how are you doing, really?" I have to believe that somewhere in there is also the belief that the niceties are wasted on us, coarse cows that we are. Bears are happy shitting in the woods and "sistaz" ain't got no time for no nonsense like sweet talk, a man who rises when we do, or a lover to whisper naughty things to in the dark. And we don't need no stinking flowers either, or at least Jamie Foxx's hospitalized mother didn't; in "Collateral," she rejected them and belittled him for his foolishness. The bedraggled dandelions I got for Mother's Day this year will shrivel up and blow away before I'll part with them.

Owen, Vince: We long for those things. It's a misery to black woman why our strength, the strength that kept our people from extinction and which holds the community together yet, makes us seem manly somehow, as if no white woman has ever roughened her pink hands or survived rape for her family's sake. Or been a bitch. Why is it so hard to fathom that we can raise our children alone (if need be, rarely by preference), work two jobs and still look good in a miniskirt. Still want to look good in a miniskirt. Sisters are simply not seen as either ladylike or, to put it bluntly, fuckable. Rapeable, certainly, as the history of slavery and Jim Crow prove, just not fuckable.

I realized this in the 1980s and '90s when, because of my career choices, I was usually the only woman and only black around. I'd say nothing as my office mates, the men I partied with and who backed me to the hilt professionally, would grouse about the lack of women. I was smarter and better-looking than they were. I was, to take a page from my plain-spoken Vince, hot. I wore uncomfortably tight clothing. Makeup and sheer pantyhose. Nail polish. Jane Fonda for daaaaays. My heels were so legendary, my nickname was Spike. Oh, Debra dressed shamefully in the summertime. But to most white men, to the men who occupied the world that my life choices drew me to, I was invisible. When I finally married at 40, it was to the first man who'd asked me out in five years. I had been holding out for a brother but, realizing that was even less likely to happen, finally let that go.

Even when I was a seven-months-pregnant behemoth, I was invisible as I hefted a load of packages to the post office at Christmastime, as I struggled with a pallet of sodas at Costco. I was even invisible in the Tiny Tim confines of the modern airplane. I could hear crickets as I struggled to get my bag into the overhead. Two seats away, an elderly white lady was swarmed by white men helping her with hers. They politely excused themselves as they tried to hurry past my bulk to her. It was all I could do not to cry. I did cry the time two white men "erased" me in a shoebox-size Dunkin Donuts in Logan Airport. One had filled the tiny room with his luggage, his restless kids and a complicated order. I waited politely in line behind him. As he was trying to get organized, he noticed the white man in line behind me and apologized profusely for holding him up. Then he waved him gallantly on to the cashier. White man No. 2 had to step over my luggage to reach the counter. However racist white men may be, a nice rack should be the great neutralizer in an encounter that will only last a minute. You have to give racism its props; it's the only force proven to trump what a hound dog the average man is.

In the '80s and '90s, I reacted to my sexual invisibility vis-à-vis white men with faux feminist sarcasm and wannabe black nationalist contempt. But I'm 46 now and far less full of bullshit. I'm not angry. I'm hurt. It's not that I want white men to want me. I want all men to want me. I want to be seen as desirable, if I actually am. As available, if I actually am. As fuckable, though you should be so lucky. But, because I'm black, I'm somehow seen as a gender crasher, an imposter fronting as a real woman. Liable to get the sexual bum's rush at any moment. No wonder so many of us are bitches. It protects us from rejection if we make it impossible to get anywhere near us in the first place.

Sitting there in the dark, halfway through the "Wedding Crashers" montage, I realized that I was jealous of those girls just setting out in life and thought I was getting over it. I had made the most of my youth; it was someone else's turn now. I went all Mother Earthy and wise and found myself watching them with something like a maternal respect and approval, like lagging back a pace so my daughter could take her first steps or cheering as she hit her first home run. I was passing the torch, one risk-taking hottie to another. Or so I thought. In the end, all I was allowed to do was watch how "real women" live. Every woman will be able to picture herself in that parade of female pleasure, female power and eternal youth. Every woman but the black ones.

A basically sweet, silly movie has me, late in life, reconsidering my impatience with nitnoy black separatism -- black dorms, Miss Black America pageants, "The Wiz." I still believe that true separatism is not a viable option for a group comprising only 13 percent of the population, but perhaps a psychological one may well be required to maintain our mental health. As with OJ and Michael Jackson, white folks have turned on me when I've been among the most "assimilated" of Negroes, and I went slinking back to the hood. I've been soothing myself, post-"Crashers," with marathon sessions of the Soul Food compilation. What a relief. What a refuge. In that parallel universe, that majority-black fantasy land, sisters can be mere women, just women, any woman. Ones with "hair like a black girl's" or ones with weaves. Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between. Straight. Gay. Working-class and multimillionaire. Godless and God-fearing. Bitchy and sweet. All different, all little concerned with white folks, all getting laid since the brothers there (unlike in the real world) can't take their eyes off us.

For us mules of the world, it's too bad that world doesn't exist either.


- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Debra J. Dickerson is the author of "The End of Blackness" and "An American Story."


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Wed 09 Nov 2005 19:40 
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Why would that contribute to an inferiority complex. Does variability in the hispanic population take away from the beauty of individual phenotypes? NO. It is the stereotypes of beauty themselves that are the problem. Many native Americans do not have ANY mixture with Europeans so their men aren't being influenced by anthing similar to what you claim, but their men are still exposed to the media opinion of what beauty is. Women still try to look as Eurocentric as possible. Black populations having a homogenous dark skin appearance isn't going to change the fact that if there are media stereotypes of beauty, their men will look towards other populations for what they are indocrinated to see as beautiful.

Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec 2005 20:02 
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Salsassin wrote:
Why would that contribute to an inferiority complex. Does variability in the hispanic population take away from the beauty of individual phenotypes? NO. It is the stereotypes of beauty themselves that are the problem. Many native Americans do not have ANY mixture with Europeans so their men aren't being influenced by anthing similar to what you claim, but their men are still exposed to the media opinion of what beauty is. Women still try to look as Eurocentric as possible. Black populations having a homogenous dark skin appearance isn't going to change the fact that if there are media stereotypes of beauty, their men will look towards other populations for what they are indocrinated to see as beautiful.

Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."



I agree,

_________________
"Until the Lion writes his own story, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter." - African proverbs

"I am Black & I am White, and know there is no difference. Each 1 casts a shadow, and all shadows are dark." -Walter White


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2006 15:14 
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Salsassin wrote:
Why would that contribute to an inferiority complex. Does variability in the hispanic population take away from the beauty of individual phenotypes? NO. It is the stereotypes of beauty themselves that are the problem. Many native Americans do not have ANY mixture with Europeans so their men aren't being influenced by anthing similar to what you claim, but their men are still exposed to the media opinion of what beauty is. Women still try to look as Eurocentric as possible. Black populations having a homogenous dark skin appearance isn't going to change the fact that if there are media stereotypes of beauty, their men will look towards other populations for what they are indocrinated to see as beautiful.

Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."


Hi,


I strongly dissagree. There is nothing to do with "inferiority complexes".
We can analyze it in "economical terms", based in the laws of offert and demand.
In mixed populations, like in Latin America (I am one of them), the offert of phenotypes is very diverse. There is a continuoum between the so called "races".
In those countries peoples choose companions in what they find prettier. Not under racial criteria.
There is certain things from every single race that is found attractive. Let me show certain examples, form the male point of view, because I am male.

(1) Positive: In native women we find attractive the oriental look of many native looking women, and the long black hairs. The feature of the face of many native women tend to be smoother and less marked that the ones of other "races", so we find it attractive.
Negative: height. Native women are usually short. Not very exuberant bodies.

(2) Possitive: In Black women what attract it most is the bodies. Those perfect gacelle bodies of certain black women and mulattas. The with teeth is also considered very attractive.
Negative: prognatism and facial features is something that goes against some black women.

(3) In white brunette women is consider attractive because of the contrast between dark eyes and hair with the white skin. An attractive brunette should have a "gothic" look, which is what is looked in the "morenas".
Negative: Average looking. Not exhotic.

(4) Possitive: A blond is considered pretty because of the color of her eyes, golden hair and pink skin. Eye catchers.
Negative: Average blond women don't usually have nice facial features (our standards), and they become old at early age.

(5) East Asia: Positive:Smothness of features and body.
Negative: flat bodies and tendency to have curved legs.

So that's the basic attractions comming from every race, for Latinos at least. Now, a mixed girl would be considered attractive considering how many of those factors she shows. Some mixed women reunite the best of many races, others the worst. So, it depends.
Latinos are not blind to beauty, nor racially biassed. They just look for the prettiest women they can reach. These are the laws of the market :)

Regards,

Omar Vega

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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2006 16:02 
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oevega wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
Why would that contribute to an inferiority complex. Does variability in the hispanic population take away from the beauty of individual phenotypes? NO. It is the stereotypes of beauty themselves that are the problem. Many native Americans do not have ANY mixture with Europeans so their men aren't being influenced by anthing similar to what you claim, but their men are still exposed to the media opinion of what beauty is. Women still try to look as Eurocentric as possible. Black populations having a homogenous dark skin appearance isn't going to change the fact that if there are media stereotypes of beauty, their men will look towards other populations for what they are indocrinated to see as beautiful.

Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."


Hi,


I strongly dissagree. There is nothing to do with "inferiority complexes".
We can analyze it in "economical terms", based in the laws of offert and demand.


Thanks for sharing that.

In mixed populations, like in Latin America (I am one of them), the offert of phenotypes is very diverse. There is a continuoum between the so called "races".
In those countries peoples choose companions in what they find prettier. Not under racial criteria.
There is certain things from every single race that is found attractive. Let me show certain examples, form the male point of view, because I am male.

(1) Positive: In native women we find attractive the oriental look of many native looking women, and the long black hairs. The feature of the face of many native women tend to be smoother and less marked that the ones of other "races", so we find it attractive.
Negative: height. Native women are usually short. Not very exuberant bodies.

(2) Possitive: In Black women what attract it most is the bodies. Those perfect gacelle bodies of certain black women and mulattas. The with teeth is also considered very attractive.
Negative: prognatism and facial features is something that goes against some black women.

(3) In white brunette women is consider attractive because of the contrast between dark eyes and hair with the white skin. An attractive brunette should have a "gothic" look, which is what is looked in the "morenas".
Negative: Average looking. Not exhotic.

But all 'white' brunett women are not very fair, many are light brown, tan etc etc and dark eyes aren't always in connection with dark hair. Many brunettes especially those of Meditteranean origin may have green eyes, a lot of Italians have a Mediterranean blue eye color

(4) Possitive: A blond is considered pretty because of the color of her eyes, golden hair and pink skin. Eye catchers.
Negative: Average blond women don't usually have nice facial features (our standards), and they become old at early age.

Again, all blonds do not have light eyes, sometimes they are very pale as well

(5) East Asia: Positive:Smothness of features and body.
Negative: flat bodies and tendency to have curved legs.

So that's the basic attractions comming from every race, for Latinos at least. Now, a mixed girl would be considered attractive considering how many of those factors she shows. Some mixed women reunite the best of many races, others the worst. So, it depends.
Latinos are not blind to beauty, nor racially biassed. They just look for the prettiest women they can reach. These are the laws of the market :)

Regards,

Omar Vega

_________________
"Until the Lion writes his own story, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter." - African proverbs

"I am Black & I am White, and know there is no difference. Each 1 casts a shadow, and all shadows are dark." -Walter White


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2006 19:22 
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gemini072 wrote:
But all 'white' brunett women are not very fair, many are light brown, tan etc etc and dark eyes aren't always in connection with dark hair. Many brunettes especially those of Meditteranean origin may have green eyes, a lot of Italians have a Mediterranean blue eye color...
...Again, all blonds do not have light eyes, sometimes they are very pale as well



Hi,

You are right, many brunettes are light brown or tanned skin, although in Spain one can find white-milk skin women with very black eyes and hair.
Many europeans are mixtures between nordic and latin "races". Between germanic and light brown people. So, I would say a brunette with colored eyes is an "birracial" women, although these days all Europeans are clasified together :)

The same for blonds that don't have blue eyes. That's not the stereotype either.

Talk about red hairs later :)

Regards,

Omar Vega

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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan 2006 05:07 
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oevega wrote:
I strongly dissagree.

With me or Powell
Quote:
There is nothing to do with "inferiority complexes".

Don't know about that. Self worth can be affected no matter if the supply is low if the demand is low anyway.

Quote:
We can analyze it in "economical terms", based in the laws of offert and demand.
In mixed populations, like in Latin America (I am one of them), the offert of phenotypes is very diverse. There is a continuoum between the so called "races".


Agreed

Quote:
In those countries peoples choose companions in what they find prettier. Not under racial criteria.


Define racial criteria. Eurocentric perception can still be a problem

Quote:
There is certain things from every single race that is found attractive. Let me show certain examples, form the male point of view, because I am male.


You sure? j/p

Quote:
(1) Positive: In native women we find attractive the oriental look of many native looking women, and the long black hairs. The feature of the face of many native women tend to be smoother and less marked that the ones of other "races", so we find it attractive.
Negative: height. Native women are usually short. Not very exuberant bodies.


And you think your bias against short height isn't Eurocentric based?

Quote:
(2) Possitive: In Black women what attract it most is the bodies. Those perfect gacelle bodies of certain black women and mulattas. The with teeth is also considered very attractive.
Negative: prognatism and facial features is something that goes against some black women.


Again, your analysis of their face is based on Eurocentric perception.

Quote:
(5) East Asia: Positive:Smothness of features and body.
Negative: flat bodies and tendency to have curved legs.

Again the Eurocentric bias

Quote:
So that's the basic attractions comming from every race, for Latinos at least. Now, a mixed girl would be considered attractive considering how many of those factors she shows. Some mixed women reunite the best of many races, others the worst. So, it depends.
Latinos are not blind to beauty, nor racially biassed. They just look for the prettiest women they can reach. These are the laws of the market :)


But what you define as beuty is based on the cultural norms you were raised in.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan 2006 17:20 
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Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females?


Salsassin wrote:
It is the stereotypes of beauty themselves that are the problem. ... Women still try to look as Eurocentric as possible. Black populations having a homogenous dark skin appearance isn't going to change the fact that if there are media stereotypes of beauty, their men will look towards other populations for what they are indocrinated [sic] to see as beautiful.


Oevega wrote:
I strongly dissagree. ...
In mixed populations, like in Latin America (I am one of them), the offert of phenotypes is very diverse. There is a continuoum between the so called "races".
In those countries peoples choose companions in what they find prettier. Not under racial criteria.
There is certain things from every single race that is found attractive.


Mr. Oevega's objection is well taken by me. U.S. Americans have not grasped that the unity of the human race (or rejected the fallacy of believed "different races") enriches everyone's life; especially their quest for a mate. Beauty, therefore, is a far larger concept than Hollywood has ever dreamt. Perhaps Gene Roddenbury tried to elicit such thinking with his imaginative Star Trek yarns? (Leading roles were played by "whites," mainly, in rubber "space-being" costumes.) The "races" legend has our peoples hypnotized, blind to the feast-for-eyes that Nature has set before them. To Mr. Oevega's argument I would add that "a black race" of "ugly women" makes no evolutionary sense. The only explanation for Debra Dickerson's "invisibility" she describes in her touching article is societal mass hypnosis. I came through it. I know whereof I speak.

Turning to the "black" side, however -- as to Ms. Dickerson's essay reflecting on "mules of the world" (i.e., Zora Neale Hurston's metaphor for "black" women) -- why shouldn't these who are most wounded by false "races" lend a hand? Would it be too much to ask Ms. Dickerson and her "mule" elite to lead even? (Dickerson actually did lead a way out. She married a "white" man, albeit reluctantly. She made clear "white" was her 2nd choice.) As A.D. Powell observed, Dickerson prejudiced her own "invisible"-image by claiming "Light, bright, damn near white" women were "black." Isn't "black" hypodescent/ODR grievance-identity culpable for this "playing the races-card" (i.e., blame other people) in every way they can?

To clarify: My recommendation is not "group rights," or the making two or more "different" racial skin-labeled groups "equal." Instead, it is recognizing all the different individuals created equal -- the "subspecies" ("groups," "different races") forgotten. Forget, too a "race" paying "reparations" to another "race" for "leveling the playing field." (E.g., unborn vs. unborn.) All our race are victims of a "science" chimera. Let's end the "blame-game" and work together seeing that equality naturally follows. (E.g., analogously: water finds its own level. But Nature distrusted, replaced by a Rube Goldburg complex of dams and pumps, can impede equality indefinitely.)
George


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan 2006 17:51 
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Salsassin wrote:

Quote:
In those countries peoples choose companions in what they find prettier. Not under racial criteria.


Define racial criteria.
Eurocentric perception can still be a problem


Racial criteria is something like: all Africans are ugly by definition. All Europeans are pretty by definition, or viceversa. There are individuals who are more beautiful than others, not whole races.

Quote:
Quote:

There is certain things from every single race that is found attractive. Let me show certain examples, form the male point of view, because I am male.



You sure? j/p


Certainly, my Peruvian friend. Very male like most Chileans and like we had shown in the past.

Quote:
Quote:
(1) Positive: In native women we find attractive the oriental look of many native looking women, and the long black hairs. The feature of the face of many native women tend to be smoother and less marked that the ones of other "races", so we find it attractive.
Negative: height. Native women are usually short. Not very exuberant bodies.


And you think your bias against short height isn't Eurocentric based?


Let's be explicit then. Native women usually have more breast than European and less butt than Africans. It's that explicit enough for you, friend :)

Quote:
Quote:
(2) Possitive: In Black women what attract it most is the bodies. Those perfect gacelle bodies of certain black women and mulattas. The with teeth is also considered very attractive.
Negative: prognatism and facial features is something that goes against some black women.


Again, your analysis of their face is based on Eurocentric perception.


No friend. It just what people judge. Prognatism, for example, although exist in any race is more common in Africans. Prognatism is not considered pretty by any people.

Quote:
Quote:
(5) East Asia: Positive:Smothness of features and body.
Negative: flat bodies and tendency to have curved legs.

Again the Eurocentric bias

Quote:


What are you, friend, a blind person? Asian women are usually less "developed" in body shape than the rest. That does not mean all of them, but many of them.


Quote:
So that's the basic attractions comming from every race, for Latinos at least. Now, a mixed girl would be considered attractive considering how many of those factors she shows. Some mixed women reunite the best of many races, others the worst. So, it depends.
Latinos are not blind to beauty, nor racially biassed. They just look for the prettiest women they can reach. These are the laws of the market :)


But what you define as beuty is based on the cultural norms you were raised in.
[/quote]

Of course, friend. I was raised in a certain culture with certain criteria for judging beauty. But I do tell you something, Many of those criteria are quite widespread worldwide.
We are not talking about racism in here but about selection: which women are considered the prettiest ones and why. I just telling you some of the criteria men usually use. People choose their couples, that's the truth, and those criteria are applied.

Regards,

Omar Vega

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 Post subject: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 04:53 
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:D


Last edited by lois on Tue 02 Oct 2007 19:10, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard Latino
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 10:14 
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Wow, how could I miss this jewel.
oevega wrote:
Racial criteria is something like: all Africans are ugly by definition. All Europeans are pretty by definition, or viceversa. There are individuals who are more beautiful than others, not whole races.


And yet he shows his racial criteria in his eurocentric claims of beauty

Quote:
Certainly, my Peruvian friend. Very male like most Chileans and like we had shown in the past.

About half the population. LOL
Quote:
Let's be explicit then. Native women usually have more breast than European and less butt than Africans. It's that explicit enough for you, friend :)

Don't know which planet he was living in. Actually an AfroCaribbean has the record and Europeans still have higher indexes than Natives in Breast size.

Quote:
No friend. It just what people judge. Prognatism, for example, although exist in any race is more common in Africans. Prognatism is not considered pretty by any people.

I would have loved to see Omar squirming to prove this claim.

Quote:
What are you, friend, a blind person? Asian women are usually less "developed" in body shape than the rest. That does not mean all of them, but many of them.


The same could be said of Native Americans. They are just different body types.

Quote:
Of course, friend. I was raised in a certain culture with certain criteria for judging beauty. But I do tell you something, Many of those criteria are quite widespread worldwide.


Mass media.

Quote:
We are not talking about racism in here but about selection: which women are considered the prettiest ones and why. I just telling you some of the criteria men usually use. People choose their couples, that's the truth, and those criteria are applied.


In Omar's case it was obviously racism


Last edited by Salsassin on Tue 10 Jul 2007 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 11:26 
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First I have to say that the movie "Wedding Crashers" was a brain-dead attempt at comedy, but that's another forum.

Debra Dickerson's viewpoint is very much 'coloured' as it were by the things that concern her at this time in her life. She misses the entire point that these male characters were preying-on, deceiving and using these often enebriated women for sex. If they preyed on a "black" woman it might bring the truth of the situation to light and ruin the comedic effect.

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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 12:01 
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Powell wrote:
Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."

I don't see anywhere in the article that she makes such a claim, by the way. Furthermore Dickerson herself probably has admixture, so are you saying only light skinned mixed people qualify?

Image

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40% European, 39% African, 20% Amerindian
Image
67% European, 32% African


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 19:01 
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Jaime, who are those people? That guy almost resembles Magic Johnson. Is he a musician from Brazil?

I dunno...I probably notice phenotype more than I should, but how is it that people who look like they do have that much European blood? Wouldn't it be more apparent in some of their characteristics? I don't wish to be offensive...I'm honestly puzzled by this.


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2007 20:19 
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pianoplayer111 wrote:
Jaime, who are those people? That guy almost resembles Magic Johnson. Is he a musician from Brazil?

I dunno...I probably notice phenotype more than I should, but how is it that people who look like they do have that much European blood? Wouldn't it be more apparent in some of their characteristics? I don't wish to be offensive...I'm honestly puzzled by this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daiane_dos_Santos
http://www.afropop.org/explore/show_art ... ija%20Flor

Think of how big the DNA strand is and how small the DNA that is for skin color, hair type and nose shape are.


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2007 03:50 
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Any man who didn't want me because of my skin or hair isn't someone I'd want to be with anyway.

I think everyone has these feelings of being rejected by people they like. It could be a racist thing but it's not necessarily so. If you feel ugly people pick up on it no matter if you are or not.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racial Beauty Standard
PostPosted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 00:54 
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[quote="Powell"]Dickerson doesn't realize that her acceptance of the myth that her "race" contains people "Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between" contributes to the inferiority complex that denigrates the real black (not "light-skinned") females. Why marry women like her when black males can marry a mulatta or mixed-white and use the "one drop" myth to plead "not guilty" to miscegenation on a technicality."

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/07/30/gender_crashers/print.html

[quote]

I just don't buy what you're saying. First of all the African American "race" does contain people light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between. Within the same families, with the same parents. So you obviously don't know many AA, or you would recognize this as fact. Secondly, this so-called "myth" you speak of will not prevent colorstruck black men from chosing to marry biracial or white women instead of black women.

The problem is brainwashing of everyone, black white and everyone in between into the eurocentric idea of the white woman being the epitome of beauty and the assassination of the character of darker skinned black women. And underlining this is several hundred years of history and brainwashing of African slaves as to their inherent inferiority and undesirability while creating a "colored" buffer race used to further oppress the black masses.

Some of this colored folk were able to pass back into white society, but the majority who weren't able to assimilated into black society, hence, many generations going forward light skinned blacks.


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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 03:08 
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Has anyone ever done a study on the average skin color of African Americans? Is it lighter, on average, than the average sub-Saharan African? Is it the same?

Why is the question of skin color being "too dark" to be American black never brought up? Why is it always the question of skin "too light" to be American black?

Furthermore, if "black" was simply based on skin color, I don't see why that would exclude some Melanesians, Indians, Indonesians (which I've been mistaken for on several occasions), New Guineans, etc. who emigrate to the United States. I'm not talking about genetics--I'm talking about skin colour, since that seems to be the focus here.


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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 05:26 
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Famu wrote:
Has anyone ever done a study on the average skin color of African Americans? Is it lighter, on average, than the average sub-Saharan African? Is it the same?

Why is the question of skin color being "too dark" to be American black never brought up? Why is it always the question of skin "too light" to be American black?

Furthermore, if "black" was simply based on skin color, I don't see why that would exclude some Melanesians, Indians, Indonesians (which I've been mistaken for on several occasions), New Guineans, etc. who emigrate to the United States. I'm not talking about genetics--I'm talking about skin colour, since that seems to be the focus here.


Black is two things. A) African ancestry, irrespective of skin color or hue. B) A synonymn for African American a culture and ethnicity also not respecting skin color

Simply put, if your ancestors originally came from Africa - and I don't care what region they came from or who they mixed with once they got here - you are black.

If you were raised in the Black Community and practice the cultural mores, etc., of that community and you also have African ancestry, guess what - you are black.

Black people in Africa are more varied looking than the "Black African" phenotype people on this forum keep insisting is the only pure representation of blackness. Contrary to popular belief on this forum blacks with light skin are not all biracial victims of some one drop rule. In fact most light blacks are no more bi or multi-racial than I am. Believe it or not you can have curly hair, light eyes and light skin and have two non-biracial parents.

Why is this so? Because the majority of AA are a mixture of African, Amerindian and white. We've been in America for 400 years.

You simply cannot base "blackness" on tone of skin alone. It's a question of ancestry and culture.


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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 11:19 
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SweetCocoa wrote:
Simply put, if your ancestors originally came from Africa - and I don't care what region they came from or who they mixed with once they got here - you are black.

If you were raised in the Black Community and practice the cultural mores, etc., of that community and you also have African ancestry, guess what - you are black.

Thank you for clarifying the terminology that you have used in several recent messages. In essence, you use the word to mean two dramatically different things, and expect your reader to figure out which you mean in any given case. Such ambiguity is not allowed in this site. Please see The Rules, paragraph 3.3.11. Please immediately stop using "black" to mean the first definition above, as that definition applies to every member of our species, thus rendering the word meaningless. Please immediately stop using the word to denote the second definition unless it is clear by your context that you mean "African-American," nothing more. This is a formal warning. Further violation of The Rules will result in the suspension of your posting privileges.

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